Battle of Britain.. movie. - Page 2 - Aircraft of World War II

diddyriddick · 10-21-2009, 02:29 PM

Excellent movie, though I agree with Proton. For those living in Dallas, the Cavanaugh Flight museum has an HE-111 that was in the movie.

Cavanaugh Flight Museum: CASA-2111E (Heinkel He-111)

Airframes · 10-21-2009, 04:57 PM

No, not Robert Shaw. It's the guy who was trying to 'cheer up the civilians'. After the opening shot 'May. 1940', where the Hurricane is filmed over the clouds, air to air, then from the ground, over the column of refugees and the British armoured car, the crew member of which says 'Who the hell's he trying to kid' as the Hurricane does a 'victory roll'.
Cut to Hurricane taxiing in, left to right, turns, stops, and pilot climbs out. It's definitely a head, with a 1960's haircut, as the real mechanic checks the aircraft is safely parked! I've watched it frame by frame a number of times now.
The key actors were taught enough to be able to taxy a (very) short distance and stop, normally with a mechanic or experienced pilot on the wing root out of shot, or close by. They also spent quite some time learning simple effects such as how to board or exit a Spit or Hurricane correctly, so that it looked authentic and convincing, as if being done by an experienced RAF pilot of the period, instead of an actor unfamiliar with the techniques.
There's also one shot, where the 'Heinkels' are taking off, where the B25 camera ship can be seen in the sky, far in the distance, ready to formate for the air to air shots. IIRC, it's top left of screen.

Messy1 · 10-21-2009, 06:30 PM

Watched it the other day! I DVR'ed it and watched it in HD! Good old movie, but had to watch in over a few days as it is long!

renrich · 10-21-2009, 07:12 PM

Tim, I agree with your post right down the line. I had read that some of the guys flying the planes were members of what was then the Confederate Air Force. Was that true?

Airframes · 10-21-2009, 07:47 PM

There were three Confederate Air Force guys, who had come over to Europe to buy a '109 (Buchon) and I think a Spit, and they ended up doing some of the flying in the Buchon's in the sequences filmed in Spain. This filming, and the sequences shot in the south of France, were carried out there due to the poor and inconsistent weather in Britain at the time, which didn't match with the summer conditions of 1940. To obatain an even balance, those air to air shots with a downwards view, where cloudscapes and/or 'British' countryside were called for, were shot in the UK, the main operating base being Duxford, with a further four airfields also being used in the UK. (The RAF scenes in 'France' were also filmed on the opposite side of Duxford airfield, with a timber facade 'Chateau' being built on the set) The sequences requiring bright, sunlit skies, were shot in Spain, with a later second unit having to move to the south of France to obtain some extra footage to tie-in with the existing footage.
The Buchons were flown by the three CAF pilots, with Spanish Air Force pilots making up the balance, under the leadership of Coammandante Santa Cruz. The air to air sequences were controlled by the director Guy hamiltion, with the Spits and Hurricanes being flown mainly by British, ex-RAF pilots. Each sequence was planned on the ground using models, and then practiced in a hangar, with the actual pilots formating on each other, and going through their required 'routines', much as free-fall parachutists today would 'dirt dive' a relative jump.
When the Heinkel and Buchons transitted to the UK, special permissions had to be sought in order to allow them to overfly some countries (France in particular) and egress the UK coast painted in Luftwaffe colours - it was still a touchy subject only 23 years after the end of WW2 !

renrich · 10-22-2009, 12:24 AM

Airframe, mighty fine info and many thanks. Someone mentioned "A Piece of Cake" very good book and a nice movie. Wrong airplanes. The AC in the book were Hurricanes and the movie had Spitfires.

proton45 · 10-22-2009, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airframes

No, not Robert Shaw. It's the guy who was trying to 'cheer up the civilians'. After the opening shot 'May. 1940', where the Hurricane is filmed over the clouds, air to air, then from the ground, over the column of refugees and the British armoured car, the crew member of which says 'Who the hell's he trying to kid' as the Hurricane does a 'victory roll'.
Cut to Hurricane taxiing in, left to right, turns, stops, and pilot climbs out. It's definitely a head, with a 1960's haircut, as the real mechanic checks the aircraft is safely parked! I've watched it frame by frame a number of times now.
The key actors were taught enough to be able to taxy a (very) short distance and stop, normally with a mechanic or experienced pilot on the wing root out of shot, or close by. They also spent quite some time learning simple effects such as how to board or exit a Spit or Hurricane correctly, so that it looked authentic and convincing, as if being done by an experienced RAF pilot of the period, instead of an actor unfamiliar with the techniques.
There's also one shot, where the 'Heinkels' are taking off, where the B25 camera ship can be seen in the sky, far in the distance, ready to formate for the air to air shots. IIRC, it's top left of screen.

Oh, I see what your talking about (my bad)...

Your talking about the guy indicated by the arrow in photo #1. I think that he is the first, of two, guys we see running by the aeroplanes as it powers down, as seen in photo #2. In the photo you can see his hair is a bit mussed up by the wind...but he is in uniform.

I still contend that the actor didn't taxi the aeroplane...as you can see their is a "cut" between the taxi shot and the shot where he powers down and exits the cockpit. But it is a bit difficult to see who is in the cockpit in photo #3.

B-17engineer · 10-22-2009, 07:22 AM

Wow nice!

Airframes · 10-22-2009, 08:45 AM

Yep, that's the sequence I meant!
I agree that on this particular shot, the actor didn't, or probably didn't, move the aircraft at all, and that he is only in it as it powers down - the 'head' being the guy ensuring it's done!
However, in the early seventies, I chatted to some of the production crew on the movie, and later met and talked to two of the British pilots who had done some of the flying. I was told that some of the key actors, Robert Shaw being one, and I think Micahel Caine another, were taught how to very gently taxy, just in order to get a partial shot, which would then cut to a 'long shot' of the aircraft moving away. This was also confirmed in a documentary on the movie, and in a book and some magazine articles. I also believe it's mentioned in the second disc, which is with my DVD copy, on how the movie was made, where the aircraft were sourced and altered etc. I understand that Shaw, in particular, was rather nervous when undertaking this shot, as he was concerned that the Spitfire would run away with him, or that he'd stuff the prop into the deck! I presume this is the scene where the Spit is seen taxiing, with Shaw in the cockpit, for a short distance before the scene cuts to a longer, wider view. Michael Caine was another nervous subject, as he couldn't even drive a car at the time the movie was shot! The scenes with him driving off in his white sports car were shot with a tractor, out of shot, towing the car!!

timshatz · 10-22-2009, 12:42 PM

Great stuff Airframes. Love all the backstory on it!

Airframes · 10-22-2009, 02:46 PM

The September issue of 'Aeroplane' magazine has just published a series of never before seen stills from the movie production department. These were 'discovered' in a vast collection belonging to the stills photographer on the sets at the time, and mainly show some of the behind the scenes work on the Buchons and Spits, and also confirm that the JU87, now in the RAF Museum, was indeed on call, and had been considered for at least some ground shots, but was never used.
Somewhere, I've got some very poor ground to air shots I took during the filming. I was 16 at the time, and on holiday in East Anglia. One day, a formation offive or six Spits flew around overhead, with the B25 formating, so I grabbed the old 'Brownie' camera and took a couple of shots. Of course, with such a simple, basic 127 camera, the pics show six dots, and a slightly bigger dot, against a vast blue background! I also have some of the 'Merchandising' released at the time the movie was being publicised for release, and a first edition programme, apparently a collector's item, but just something that's been around for awhile in my collection of cr*p !

proton45 · 10-22-2009, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airframes

Yep, that's the sequence I meant!
I agree that on this particular shot, the actor didn't, or probably didn't, move the aircraft at all, and that he is only in it as it powers down - the 'head' being the guy ensuring it's done!
However, in the early seventies, I chatted to some of the production crew on the movie, and later met and talked to two of the British pilots who had done some of the flying. I was told that some of the key actors, Robert Shaw being one, and I think Micahel Caine another, were taught how to very gently taxy, just in order to get a partial shot, which would then cut to a 'long shot' of the aircraft moving away. This was also confirmed in a documentary on the movie, and in a book and some magazine articles. I also believe it's mentioned in the second disc, which is with my DVD copy, on how the movie was made, where the aircraft were sourced and altered etc. I understand that Shaw, in particular, was rather nervous when undertaking this shot, as he was concerned that the Spitfire would run away with him, or that he'd stuff the prop into the deck! I presume this is the scene where the Spit is seen taxiing, with Shaw in the cockpit, for a short distance before the scene cuts to a longer, wider view. Michael Caine was another nervous subject, as he couldn't even drive a car at the time the movie was shot! The scenes with him driving off in his white sports car were shot with a tractor, out of shot, towing the car!!

Cool info, thanks!

Messy1 · 10-22-2009, 04:18 PM

Great, now the movie might be ruined for me, Michale Caine could not drive a car! Ruins everything! I do not think I can bear to watch it again! Now I suppose you are going to tell me he doesn't know how to fly either!

proton45 · 10-22-2009, 04:28 PM

Well, in the spirit of "on screen mistakes" I have included a well documented "cover- up" (lol)....

Here is the sequence of the visible tether...you can see in the final picture of the sequence that a string is visible hanging from the model before it crashes into the sea. The previous shot of the control cables being shot away was added later to account for the "visible string" in the final shot.

timshatz · 10-22-2009, 04:57 PM

Always wondered a bit about that. Thanks for the info Proton.

I had heard, and I don't remember where, that they initially made a call in the RAF for pilots to fly the Spitfires. Got plenty of responses but didn't quite have the whole thing figured out on who to pick. Ended up taking the two seat Spit that was available and putting the RAF guys in the cockpit with an instructor. Those that could fly a Spit showed it and got the job.

10-21-2009, 04:57 PM	#17
Airframes Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 9,062	No, not Robert Shaw. It's the guy who was trying to 'cheer up the civilians'. After the opening shot 'May. 1940', where the Hurricane is filmed over the clouds, air to air, then from the ground, over the column of refugees and the British armoured car, the crew member of which says 'Who the hell's he trying to kid' as the Hurricane does a 'victory roll'. Cut to Hurricane taxiing in, left to right, turns, stops, and pilot climbs out. It's definitely a head, with a 1960's haircut, as the real mechanic checks the aircraft is safely parked! I've watched it frame by frame a number of times now. The key actors were taught enough to be able to taxy a (very) short distance and stop, normally with a mechanic or experienced pilot on the wing root out of shot, or close by. They also spent quite some time learning simple effects such as how to board or exit a Spit or Hurricane correctly, so that it looked authentic and convincing, as if being done by an experienced RAF pilot of the period, instead of an actor unfamiliar with the techniques. There's also one shot, where the 'Heinkels' are taking off, where the B25 camera ship can be seen in the sky, far in the distance, ready to formate for the air to air shots. IIRC, it's top left of screen. __________________

10-21-2009, 06:30 PM	#18
Messy1 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Ankeny, Iowa Posts: 1,411	Watched it the other day! I DVR'ed it and watched it in HD! Good old movie, but had to watch in over a few days as it is long! __________________ Bryon O P-61 Black Widow-Mistress of the Night! "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." George S. Patton "Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government." "Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away."

10-21-2009, 07:47 PM	#20
Airframes Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 9,062	There were three Confederate Air Force guys, who had come over to Europe to buy a '109 (Buchon) and I think a Spit, and they ended up doing some of the flying in the Buchon's in the sequences filmed in Spain. This filming, and the sequences shot in the south of France, were carried out there due to the poor and inconsistent weather in Britain at the time, which didn't match with the summer conditions of 1940. To obatain an even balance, those air to air shots with a downwards view, where cloudscapes and/or 'British' countryside were called for, were shot in the UK, the main operating base being Duxford, with a further four airfields also being used in the UK. (The RAF scenes in 'France' were also filmed on the opposite side of Duxford airfield, with a timber facade 'Chateau' being built on the set) The sequences requiring bright, sunlit skies, were shot in Spain, with a later second unit having to move to the south of France to obtain some extra footage to tie-in with the existing footage. The Buchons were flown by the three CAF pilots, with Spanish Air Force pilots making up the balance, under the leadership of Coammandante Santa Cruz. The air to air sequences were controlled by the director Guy hamiltion, with the Spits and Hurricanes being flown mainly by British, ex-RAF pilots. Each sequence was planned on the ground using models, and then practiced in a hangar, with the actual pilots formating on each other, and going through their required 'routines', much as free-fall parachutists today would 'dirt dive' a relative jump. When the Heinkel and Buchons transitted to the UK, special permissions had to be sought in order to allow them to overfly some countries (France in particular) and egress the UK coast painted in Luftwaffe colours - it was still a touchy subject only 23 years after the end of WW2 ! __________________

10-22-2009, 07:22 AM	#23
B-17engineer Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: New Jersey Posts: 5,689	Wow nice! __________________ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pe36UMRkRbk

10-22-2009, 08:45 AM	#24
Airframes Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 9,062	Yep, that's the sequence I meant! I agree that on this particular shot, the actor didn't, or probably didn't, move the aircraft at all, and that he is only in it as it powers down - the 'head' being the guy ensuring it's done! However, in the early seventies, I chatted to some of the production crew on the movie, and later met and talked to two of the British pilots who had done some of the flying. I was told that some of the key actors, Robert Shaw being one, and I think Micahel Caine another, were taught how to very gently taxy, just in order to get a partial shot, which would then cut to a 'long shot' of the aircraft moving away. This was also confirmed in a documentary on the movie, and in a book and some magazine articles. I also believe it's mentioned in the second disc, which is with my DVD copy, on how the movie was made, where the aircraft were sourced and altered etc. I understand that Shaw, in particular, was rather nervous when undertaking this shot, as he was concerned that the Spitfire would run away with him, or that he'd stuff the prop into the deck! I presume this is the scene where the Spit is seen taxiing, with Shaw in the cockpit, for a short distance before the scene cuts to a longer, wider view. Michael Caine was another nervous subject, as he couldn't even drive a car at the time the movie was shot! The scenes with him driving off in his white sports car were shot with a tractor, out of shot, towing the car!! __________________

10-21-2009, 02:29 PM	#16
diddyriddick Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Hamlet, NC, US Posts: 723	Excellent movie, though I agree with Proton. For those living in Dallas, the Cavanaugh Flight museum has an HE-111 that was in the movie. Cavanaugh Flight Museum: CASA-2111E (Heinkel He-111)

10-21-2009, 07:12 PM	#19
renrich Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Montrose, Colorado Posts: 3,271	Tim, I agree with your post right down the line. I had read that some of the guys flying the planes were members of what was then the Confederate Air Force. Was that true?

10-22-2009, 12:24 AM	#21
renrich Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Montrose, Colorado Posts: 3,271	Airframe, mighty fine info and many thanks. Someone mentioned "A Piece of Cake" very good book and a nice movie. Wrong airplanes. The AC in the book were Hurricanes and the movie had Spitfires.

10-22-2009, 12:42 PM	#25
timshatz Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Phila, Pa Posts: 3,446	Great stuff Airframes. Love all the backstory on it!

10-22-2009, 02:46 PM	#26
Airframes Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 9,062	The September issue of 'Aeroplane' magazine has just published a series of never before seen stills from the movie production department. These were 'discovered' in a vast collection belonging to the stills photographer on the sets at the time, and mainly show some of the behind the scenes work on the Buchons and Spits, and also confirm that the JU87, now in the RAF Museum, was indeed on call, and had been considered for at least some ground shots, but was never used. Somewhere, I've got some very poor ground to air shots I took during the filming. I was 16 at the time, and on holiday in East Anglia. One day, a formation offive or six Spits flew around overhead, with the B25 formating, so I grabbed the old 'Brownie' camera and took a couple of shots. Of course, with such a simple, basic 127 camera, the pics show six dots, and a slightly bigger dot, against a vast blue background! I also have some of the 'Merchandising' released at the time the movie was being publicised for release, and a first edition programme, apparently a collector's item, but just something that's been around for awhile in my collection of cr*p ! __________________

10-22-2009, 04:18 PM	#28
Messy1 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Ankeny, Iowa Posts: 1,411	Great, now the movie might be ruined for me, Michale Caine could not drive a car! Ruins everything! I do not think I can bear to watch it again! Now I suppose you are going to tell me he doesn't know how to fly either! __________________ Bryon O P-61 Black Widow-Mistress of the Night! "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." George S. Patton "Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government." "Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away."

10-22-2009, 04:57 PM	#30
timshatz Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Phila, Pa Posts: 3,446	Always wondered a bit about that. Thanks for the info Proton. I had heard, and I don't remember where, that they initially made a call in the RAF for pilots to fly the Spitfires. Got plenty of responses but didn't quite have the whole thing figured out on who to pick. Ended up taking the two seat Spit that was available and putting the RAF guys in the cockpit with an instructor. Those that could fly a Spit showed it and got the job.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode