disturbing Japanese anime' (hiroshima 1945)

[imalko]

Originally Posted by ToughOmbre

The Japanese slaughter of 250,000 Chinese civilians to punish the Chinese people for daring to aid the Doolittle Raiders.

The Bataan Death March, and the treatment of Allied POWs captured by the Japanese.

War is a dirty business but the Axis nations were killing tens of thousands of civilians long before the US ever heard of Hiroshima.

One more thing, the atomic raids saved millions of lives.

I'm refering to this and most of previous posts in this thread. You can not justify a crime by saying that opposing side commited war crimes as well.

Don't get me wrong. Axis powers did comitted horrible war crimes, magnitude of which is unparallel in human history!! But in my oppinion bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaky (and Dresden for that matter) was also crime against humanity, more so becouse it couldn't be justified by military reasons.

In august 1945 - with Soviet Union finally engaged in the war in Far east, with US and Royal Navies dominating the Pacific and entering unopposed in Japans teritorial waters, with Japanese cities and industry bombed to submition and with bulk of Japanese army isolated on numerous islands across Pacific or all but defeated in Burma and in China - final surrender of Japan was only matter of weeks if not days. Indeed only obstacle for imediate peace was the fate of their emperor. Japan's will to resist was allready broken by that time.

And then came bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaky, when they weren't needed any more. The only reason for this atomic raids was one of prestige and demonstration of military power of the United States. Atomic bombs haven't shortened the war which was already over and haven't saved millions of lives of American troops since those lives weren't in danger any more.

Hiroshima and Nagasaky will remain eternal remainders of the horrors of atomic war.

[timshatz]

Boy Imalko, you've opened a hornet's nest now

Rather than get into the ins and outs of the arguement, read the following books:

"Retribution" by Max Hastings
"Tenozan" by George Feifer

Both are very good reads that cover the subject. But to say the bombings of Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Dresden were overkill is to miss the point of the evolution of total war. These books do a good job of covering it and will give a better perspective than you can find anywhere else.

To my mind, it is not amazing that the three cities were bombed as thoroughly as they were. Rather, it is amazing that more of cities, nations and groups weren't wiped out. It is amazing the war ended as it did, when it did.

[comiso90]

Originally Posted by imalko

And then came bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaky, when they weren'n needed any more. The only reason for this atomic raids was one of prestige and demonstration of military power of the United States. Atomic bombs haven't shortened the war which was allready over and haven't saved millions of lives of American troops since those lives weren't in danger any more.

Hiroshima and Nagasaky will remain eternal remainders of the horrors of atomic war.

Wow... so you think they were about to surrender? Do you think the allies should have invaded?

wow? really?

I do agree that politics played a role in the dropping of the bomb but I also believe the Japanese weren't about to surrender. There were powerful factions who didnt want to surrender after the bombs were dropped!

True Hiroshima and Nagasaki are testimonials to the horror of atomic war - so? there are lots a horrors in war. The two bombs were only two mechanisms out of many.
They are also symbols of how technology can save lives... those two bombs saved more lives than they took!


.

[imalko]

Originally Posted by timshatz

Boy Imalko, you've opened a hornet's nest now

Well, we can allways agree that we disagree on some topic, but remain respectfull of eachother. I am just stating my oppinion.

Thanks for recomended reading. I don't believe I could find those books in Serbia, even if we have several good book stores with wide selection of books in English. Can this books be somehow found through the internet?

[imalko]

Timshatz, I see what you ment with that hornet's nest remark.

I do think they were about to surrender, even if there was many faction within Japanese government opposing this. Some would say that the real reason as why Japan surrendered is USSR entering the war, but I think that wasn't only reason.

[Bill G.]

Originally Posted by imalko

I'm refering to this and most of previous posts in this thread. You can not justify a crime by saying that opposing side commited war crimes as well.

Don't get me wrong. Axis powers did comitted horrible war crimes, magnitude of which is unparallel in human history!! But in my oppinion bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaky (and Dresden for that matter) was also crime against humanity, more so becouse it couldn't be justified by military reasons.

In august 1945 - with Soviet Union finally engaged in the war in Far east, with US and Royal Navies dominating the Pacific and entering unopposed in Japans teritorial waters, with Japanese cities and industry bombed to submition and with bulk of japanese army isolated on numerous island across Pacific or all but defetaed in Burma and in China - final surrender of Japan was only matter of weeks in not days. Indeed only obstacle for imediate peace was the fate of their emperor. Japans will to resist was allready broken by that time.

And then came bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaky, when they weren'n needed any more. The only reason for this atomic raids was one of prestige and demonstration of military power of the United States. Atomic bombs haven't shortened the war which was allready over and haven't saved millions of lives of American troops since those lives weren't in danger any more.

Hiroshima and Nagasaky will remain eternal remainders of the horrors of atomic war.

You are looking at history. President Truman didn't have the huge advantage you do of 68 years of hindsight. The choice to use atomic weapons was based on what he knew then. If you was The President in August, 1945, I'll bet you would have used the bombs too.

Japan was ready to fight as bloody of a ground war as possible if we had invaded. Okinawa showed that we were going to have huge casualities when we invaded.

Using the atomic bombed ended Japan's will to fight. And even then it took almost a week before it did.

My best guess is that if we had not used the atomic bombs on Japan, either the USSR or America would have used them in Korea. But because of the public horror/fear of these weapons, they have not been used in battle since August 9, 1945. So their use on Hiroshima and Nagasaki has kept the nukes "in the holster" for 68+ years. Let us hope that continues.

Bill G.

[imalko]

Originally Posted by Bill G.

My best guess is that if we had not used the atomic bombs on Japan, either the USSR or America would have used them in Korea. But because of the public horror/fear of these weapons, they have not been used in battle since August 9, 1945. So their use on Hiroshima and Nagasaki has kept the nukes "in the holster" for 68+ years. Let us hope that continues.

Bill G.

I agree on that one 100%. That would be the only "good" thing that came out of this two raids.

[ToughOmbre]

Originally Posted by imalko

You can not justify a crime by saying that opposing side commited war crimes as well.

You have a distorted view of what a constitutes a "war crime".

Originally Posted by imalko

In august 1945 - with Soviet Union finally engaged in the war in Far east.....

The Soviet Union entered the war against Japan on August 8, two days AFTER Hiroshima.

Originally Posted by imalko

Japans will to resist was allready broken by that time.

Then why did the Japanese refuse to surrender after the August 6 raid on Hiroshima?

Also, after the August 9 raid on Nagasaki, the Japanese refused to surrender on August 10, 11, 12, 13 and 14. Only when the emporer spoke to the people on the 15th did Japan finally agree to unconditional surrender.

Originally Posted by imalko

And then came bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaky, when they weren'n needed any more.

Have you ever heard of the Potsdam Declaration?

Originally Posted by imalko

The only reason for this atomic raids was one of prestige and demonstration of military power of the United States.

That was an inevitable fringe benefit of the raids, not the "only reason".

Originally Posted by imalko

Atomic bombs haven't shortened the war which was allready over and haven't saved millions of lives of American troops since those lives weren't in danger any more.

Your "facts" are the classic arguments that revisionist historians have been putting forth for 60 years. And they are no more accurate today than they were in 1945.

TO

[imalko]

Please continue with stating the "facts" and you might persuade me that atomic raids on Japan were absolutely necessary and inevitable.

I was just stating my opinion and speaking from standpoint of humanity. What urged me to join this thread in the first place is the way that in some earlier posts people automatically started to justify atomic raids with crimes that were commited by the Japanese. (Issue of some kind of collective pricks of conscience maybe?) That's the reason for my "you can't justify crime with a crime" statement.

You have pointed on some historical facts that clarify the situation in the Pacific theatre in august 1945 so I can grant you that atomic raids were perhaps war ending, but crimes against humanity none the less. Call me naive, but that is my opinion as a human being and not as a "revisionist historian" which I am not.

What would be your standpoint about Dresden raid? Could that too be justified, when there was no war industry or German troops in the city and when even a number of allied prisoners of war which happened to be there perished?

[ToughOmbre]

Originally Posted by imalko

What would be your standpoint about Dresden raid? Could that too be justified, when even a number of allied prisoners of war which happened to be there perished?

War is hell imalko. And no part of it is pretty.

And for the record, I do not believe that the atomic raids were payback for the many Japanese atrocities that occurred during the war. They were meant to spare us from having to invade the Japanese home islands and thereby save countless American lives, pure and simple.

Actually the bombing of civilian population centers was status quo, even an accepted strategy, back in the 30s and 40s, ever since the bombing of Guernica during the Spanish Civil War.

TO

[imalko]

Originally Posted by ToughOmbre

You have a distorted view of what a constitutes a "war crime".

For me the deliberately bombing of civilian targets is a war crime. And that goes for German raids on Guernica, Warsaw, London, Belgrade... same as for Allied bombing of Dresden, Tokio and other cities.

And for the record I did heard about Potsdam declaration.

[ToughOmbre]

Originally Posted by imalko

For me the deliberately bombing of civilian targets is a crime. And that goes for German raids on Guernica, Warsaw, London, Belgrade... same as for Allied bombing of Dresden and other cities.

By today's standards yes. But as I previously posted, the mindset was different during WW II.

War itself is a crime, but many times a necessary evil.

TO

[imalko]

"For a smart man every war is lost!"
(Đorđe Balašević)

[GrauGeist]

Actually, Hiroshima was a huge army embarkation and depot center and Nagasaki was a strategic naval and seaport complex. So both were very much active military/industrial targets. On the otherhand, the fire-bombings of Tokyo were a "conventional" bombing and accounted for over 100,000 deaths, over 125,000 wounded and over 1,000,000 displaced from thier homes.

Make no mistake about it, Japan was not going to surrender and was prepared to resist an invasion at any cost. Even after the first bomb was dropped, Japan refused to surrender. The Japanese military command had been preparing for invasion by not only stockpiling weapons throughout the homeland, but they had over 10,000 fighter aircraft and other assets saved for the invasion. Additionally, they had massed a good number of army divisions into strategic areas on Kyushu that were well fortified, numbering close to 900,000 men in 14 divisions, 3 tank brigades and a number of smaller specialized units. The Japanese had over 65 divisions in the homeland by August of 1945.

Also, the civilian population was prepared to fight alongside thier military and the Allied command was aware of this fact. The Japanese defense plan was called Operation Ketsugo and was accurately predicting the areas the Allies were to invade, mainly because of the geography of the islands.

The Allied commanders were projecting that at least 1,000,000 Allied casualties would result from the invasion, starting with "Operation Downfall", set to commence in October 1945. This was just the southern island of Kyushu...and that was*if* the initial invasion went well. The second invasion, "Coronet" was set for spring 1946 targeting the area near Tokyo. The Allied commanders also estimated a Japanese casualty figure of well over 10,000,000 deaths.

All one has to do, is look at the savage battle for Okinawa and see just how prepared the Japanese were to defend thier native soil.

The fact that the A-bombs stopped all this from happening served a purpose, and while they may have been a horrific method, consider just how hideous the alternative would have been...

[Shinpachi]

Hi, imalko. Thank you very much for your so educational and thoughtful comments.

I believe that your opinion and wisdom come from many war experiences for thousands of years in European history. Japan has also long history but had only a few countable war experiences outside the islands as we are isolated from the continent.

We were so hysteric about the international war with no cool judgment and less experience that our leader was unable to decide when we should withdraw or compromise with the opponents. It was a lack of diplomacy.

How Japan would have been if no atomic bombs were dropped?
I know the allies were planning their land invasion in November, 1945. The war would continue till the end of the year or early 1946 when our headquarters evacuated into the deep shelters of mid-mountains area to controll guerrilla warfare. But it would have made no sense any longer because Japan would have been devided into the North and the South sooner or later. The longer we fought, the deeper the former Soviet Union would have invaded into the islands from the north.

Please don't misunderstand. I can never say 'Thank you very much for dropping the atomic bombs on us'. They were too much.