disturbing Japanese anime' (hiroshima 1945)

[Vassili Zaitzev]

Sorry Imalko, but I have to disagree with you. By today's standards yes, the deliberate bombings of civilians is frowned upon, but the mindset of 1945 was different. Condemning the bombings today would be like condeming the colonialism back in the 18th and 19th centuries, different times. I firmly believed that the atomic bombings saved more lives then they took. The projected casulties for the invasion were higher then the casulties sustained from the bombings. Besides, to my knowledge the fire bombings of Tokyo had more casulties.

[comiso90]

Originally Posted by Vassili Zaitzev

Sorry Imalko, but I have to disagree with you. By today's standards yes, the deliberate bombings of civilians is frowned upon, but the mindset of 1945 was different.

I think you mean in the context of all out war where nations are fighting for their very survival instead of referencing 1945 / 2009?

If anything, I think we're less civilized.

It was equally abhorrent back then. We shouldn't minimize civilian casualties by thinking it was somehow more acceptable in the '40's. We're not above it now... the weapons are even more efficient for incinerating civilians. The next time we have an all out war, it will happen again.

If it seems less palatable in 2009 it's cause of all the video and communication we ingest.

.

[Vassili Zaitzev]

I guess, sorry if I'm being confusing. I forgot that it was total war by 1945.

[Konigstiger205]

Honestly, the whole WW2 was a bloody war crime. There were killings everywhere, some justified, others no so justified. I was horrified by the atrocities committed by the Japanese army, but also horrified by the atomic bombs. In every war civilians get caught in the middle of it and suffer the most, because politicians...War and politics are dirty because we make them dirty! Its like Iraqi civilians taking revenge on American civilians for the bombing of the US Air Force...its a vicious circle...One thing is for sure, aliens won't invade and kill us, or some natural cataclysm, the human race will kill itself, its what we do best...

[timshatz]

Originally Posted by imalko

Well, we can allways agree that we disagree on some topic, but remain respectfull of eachother. I am just stating my oppinion.

Thanks for recomended reading. I don't believe I could find those books in Serbia, even if we have several good book stores with wide selection of books in English. Can this books be somehow found through the internet?

Imalko, you can definitely get "Retribution" on the net. Here's a link to it at Amazon:

Amazon.com: Retribution: The Battle for Japan, 1944-45 (Vintage): Max Hastings: Books

Tenozan is a harder book to find. But it is also at Amazon. Link:

Amazon.com: Tennozan: The Battle of Okinawa and the Atomic Bomb: George Feifer: Books

Both books are well written and cover the topic of the last year of the war in the Pacific very well. Retribution is more recent and has more work on the CBI (China-Burma-India) theatre in it (a side of the war that is pretty much forgotten these days). Tenozan covers the American invasion of Okinawa and the dropping of the bomb. Okinawa is covered more closely, the Atom bomb details are almost an afterthought but they do give some perspective on it, in terms of the battle of Okinawa.

As I said, both are good reads. Well researched and written. Good luck!

PS- It's been my experience that used books are just as good as new books. Unless you are building a library, why bother paying for the new stuff?

[timshatz]

[QUOTE=imalko;473575]Timshatz, I see what you ment with that hornet's nest remark.
QUOTE]

Yeah Man! This is a topic where the only opinions are strong ones

[Njaco]

Thats 10 minutes I won't get back.

[Gnomey]

Originally Posted by Njaco

Thats 10 minutes I won't get back.

Yep, I didn't think it was anything special or particularly disturbing.

Certainly the is the reasons for the event itself but that is pretty self explanatory and has already been covered in this thread very well by others.

[comiso90]

imalko



>>I do think they were about to surrender, even if there was many faction within Japanese government opposing this.

You think they were about to surrender?.... read:





Japanese leader thought his country "weak" for surrendering after Hiroshima



By Julian Ryall in Tokyo
Last Updated: 11:37PM BST 12 Aug 2008

General Hideki Tojo lashed out at his countrymen in his journal even after atomic bombs had been dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The journal, found in the National Archives of Japan, covers the two-week period from Aug 10, 1945, a day after the second atomic bomb had struck Nagasaki.

"The Japanese government has accepted the notion that Japan is the loser and it appears to be going to accept unconditional surrender," Tojo wrote. "Such a position frustrates the officers and soldiers of the imperial armed forces.

"Without fully employing its abilities even at the final moment, the imperial nation is surrendering to the enemies' propaganda," he wrote. "I never imagined such torpor in the nation's leaders and its people."

Tojo ordered the 1941 bombing of Pearl Harbor that brought the United States into the Second World War. But he was forced out as premier in 1944 as the tide of the conflict turned.

He was hanged in December 1948 as a Class-A war criminal after being found guilty at the Tokyo war crimes tribunal.

The journal, published in the Nikkei newspaper in the run-up to Friday's 63rd anniversary of Japan's surrender, provoked a strong reaction in Japan. Professor Tsuyoshi Amemiya, a military historian, said that Tojo's bitterness at the people and leaders aware that there was no hope of withstanding the Allies' onslaught was misplaced.

"His feelings towards the Japanese people were completely wrong," said Prof Amemiya, 73. "I was a militaristic 10-year-old when I heard the emperor announce the surrender and I cried and cried because I never thought Japan would be defeated.

"But Japanese people, in their real hearts, were exhausted by the war," he said. "We had no guts left to fight. We were poor, hungry, tired from working so hard, the cities were burned to ashes and every day we were attacked from the air."

In the diaries, Tojo is critical of Japanese leaders' acceptance of the 1945 Potsdam Declaration, which called for Tokyo to surrender unconditionally, lambasting them as being "frightened by new types of bombs and scared of the Soviet Union entering the war" in the Pacific theatre.

Tojo anticipated a "humiliating surrender" but refused to criticise the emperor when the capitulation was announced over the radio.

"Now that the government has decided to proceed to diplomatic processes after gaining the emperor's judgment, I have decided to refrain from making any comments about it, although I have maintained a separate view," he wrote.



Japanese leader thought his country "weak" for surrendering after Hiroshima - Telegraph

Japan



Japanese leader thought his country "weak" for surrendering after Hiroshima - Telegraph

[imalko]

Hi comiso90!
I have read your post carefully and here are some of my observations.

Originally Posted by comiso90

Professor Tsuyoshi Amemiya, a military historian, said that Tojo's bitterness at the people and leaders aware that there was no hope of withstanding the Allies' onslaught was misplaced.

"His feelings towards the Japanese people were completely wrong," said Prof Amemiya, 73. "I was a militaristic 10-year-old when I heard the emperor announce the surrender and I cried and cried because I never thought Japan would be defeated.

"But Japanese people, in their real hearts, were exhausted by the war," he said. "We had no guts left to fight. We were poor, hungry, tired from working so hard, the cities were burned to ashes and every day we were attacked from the air."

Will of Japanese people to resist broken?

Originally Posted by comiso90

In the diaries, Tojo is critical of Japanese leaders' acceptance of the 1945 Potsdam Declaration, which called for Tokyo to surrender unconditionally, lambasting them as being "frightened by new types of bombs and scared of the Soviet Union entering the war" in the Pacific theatre.

Atomic raids are not the only reason for surrender of Japan. Soviet Union entering the war was also a major factor.

Originally Posted by comiso90

Tojo anticipated a "humiliating surrender" but refused to criticise the emperor when the capitulation was announced over the radio.

"Now that the government has decided to proceed to diplomatic processes after gaining the emperor's judgment, I have decided to refrain from making any comments about it, although I have maintained a separate view," he wrote.

Even the hard militarists were prepared to accept the surrender upon emperor's judgment?

So, I believe that crucial question is this - were Japanese people ready to accept surrender upon their emperor's judgment even without atomic raids, or not?

I believe they were. But I admit that I'm no expert about Japanese culture or mentality of their people, so I might be wrong. The real person to answer this question for us is Mr. Shinpachi to whom I send my regards.

One other remark. I think (by some of previous posts in this thread) that battle for Okinawa was exeptionaly traumatic for Americans. Would you agree that this was perhaps one of the major reasons for final decision on using the atomic bombs?

[ToughOmbre]

Originally Posted by imalko

One other remark. I think (by some of previous posts in this thread) that battle for Okinawa was exeptionaly traumatic for Americans. Would you agree that this was perhaps one of the major reasons for final decision on using the atomic bombs?

Absolutely imalko. 50,000 casualties (12,500 dead) against 100,000 Japanese troops on the island. Do the math if we invaded the home islands. As stated before, the reason for the use of the A-bombs was to save American lives. The residual benefit was that it saved many Japanese lives as well.

TO

[comiso90]

Originally Posted by imalko

gards.

One other remark. I think (by some of previous posts in this thread) that battle for Okinawa was exeptionaly traumatic for Americans. Would you agree that this was perhaps one of the major reasons for final decision on using the atomic bombs?

I don't think the decisions to drop bombs was an emotional decision. The entire Pacific campaign was traumatic. The bomb was dropped because we were convinced that the Japanese would not surrender w/o invading their home islands. True, they knew that they could no longer win the war but they were hoping for a honorable (relatively) and conditional armistice.

Even if they didn't "fight to the last man", I believe they wouldn't have surrendered until we invaded and destroyed several cities "the old fashioned way" and the emperor was dead. Post-war Japan needed the Emperor!

I do agree that politics (the soviet union). was a big factor but the fear of committing a million+ man army to an invasion was the deciding factor...

Can you imagine the reconstruction? I'm sorry, but I'm convinced the Japanese are lucky we dropped the bombs! Instead of leveling a couple dozen cities with conventional warfare... they lost 2 with atomic.


We will never agree as long as you feel surrender was eminent and i do not.....

.

[Njaco]

Maybe if the Japanese leaders had understood that little video back in '31 /'32 there never would have been a bomb or a PTO. Sorry but whoever throws the stick first better make sure its not a boomerang.

[imalko]

Originally Posted by comiso90

Even if they didn't "fight to the last man", I believe they wouldn't have surrendered until we invaded and destroyed several cities "the old fashioned way" and the emperor was dead. Post-war Japan needed the Emperor!

So, you do believe that they (Japanese people) would actually overthrow their emperor or even kill him(!) if he had declared himself in favor of surrender, without so horrible threat such is total destruction by atomic weapons?

I'm not so sure. But as I said, to correctly answer to this interesting question one would really have to be an expert about mentality of Japanese people, their tradition and importance of emperor in their culture.

[comiso90]

Originally Posted by imalko

So, you do believe that they (Japanese people) would actually overthrow their emperor or even kill him(!) if he had declared himself in favor of surrender, without so horrible threat such is total destruction by atomic weapons? I'm not so sure. But as I said, to corectly answer this question one would really have to be expert about mentality of Japanese people, their tradition and importance of emperor in their culture.

No... he was a supreme deity. I don't believe they would have overthrown him.


when I said "the emperor was dead" I meant by allied hands or suicide. Sure, there is a chance that one minority faction may have assassinated him but I dont think that would happen.

The Japanese Army and Navy were in a power struggle but they both revered the Emperor...

also i didnt say "or" the emperor was dead... it was AND: until we invaded and destroyed several cities "the old fashioned way" and the emperor was dead.

That still means invasion which justifys the big bangs.

.