Gladiators of World War II : Waffen SS

[Maximowitz]

Originally Posted by Amsel

The Waffen SS were soldiers. They fought at the front and were no more involved in war crimes then any other units at the front. There was proven to be warcrimes committed by both sides during WWII as would happen in any total war. The Allgemine SS were the despicable ones and were involved in some very sinister things. Some of the Waffen SS units who were involved and formed for anti-partisan missions, such as the 7./SS "Prinz Eugen" have a very bad record indeed as only fighting armed civilians would cause.

I would be interested on you views concerning the 2nd SS Panzer Division "Das Reich" behaviour at Oradour-sur-Glane in that case. I've been there. It's not pretty.

[Hesekiel]

Oradour was a absolutely horrible thing...
But you should note one thing...
This crime was taken by one company of the division. This has discredited the whole division..
I had named in my first post only the "Totenkopf-Verbände".. Yrs.. there were more units.. Dirlewanger, Handschar and a few more...

[evangilder]

I was listing that one as one of the horrific examples of the SS. There are others that were bad as well.

[Amsel]

Originally Posted by Maximowitz

I would be interested on you views concerning the 2nd SS Panzer Division "Das Reich" behaviour at Oradour-sur-Glane in that case. I've been there. It's not pretty.

Sure, no problem.
I cannot think of too many things more horrible then to take another persons life. Goverments have historically sanctioned killing of humans or homocide, since people formed goverments. The pain and havoc unleashed upon the world by humans goverments in WWII cannot be measured. The war crimes committed by Das Reich ( who were not following the rules of homocide) are repugnant. In the modern civilized world of homocide there are rules that cannot be broken.

My heart goes out to the victims of all warcimes in France, the Balkans, Berlin, Russia, and Dresden.

[Maestro]

Originally Posted by Amsel

My heart goes out to the victims of all warcimes in France, the Balkans, Berlin, Russia, and Dresden.

If you consider Dresden as a War Crime, then you must list London, Liverpool and every other English cities who suffered from the Blitz in 1940...

...As well as Poland and Holland.

[Hesekiel]

You can call EVERY bombing of a civil city a war crime...
A fact is that it was well known that the city of Dresden was overfilled with escapees...........

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Thorlifter

Adler, wasn't the Allgemeine SS a more "generic" form of the Waffen SS, where the true "bad guys" were from the Waffen SS?

I put those words in quotes because I mean them in very general terms.

Actually it goes a lot more deeper than that.

The Algemeine SS were a non combat form of the SS and the Waffen SS were an elite fighting force.

There were many different branches of the SS. The worst of them were the SS-Totenkopfverbände which were the concentration camp guards.

That is the thing though, you can not lump the whole SS into one big clump. There literally were a dozen different branches of the SS.

Originally Posted by Hesekiel

A fact is that it was well known that the city of Dresden was overfilled with escapees...........

Does not change a thing. London, Amsterdam, Warsaw, etc. all were well known to have civilians living in them!

[Hesekiel]

You are right.. look at the first part of my post that you have not quoted....

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Hesekiel

You are right.. look at the first part of my post that you have not quoted....

No, I chose not to quote it. You make it seem like Dresden was worse because there were refugees in the city. How are refugees worse than any other civilian?

[Hesekiel]

What i mean is the mass of refugees.. This town was more than overfilled with them.. And that was a known circumstance.
So i would like to make a difference..

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Hesekiel

What i mean is the mass of refugees.. This town was more than overfilled with them.. And that was a known circumstance.
So i would like to make a difference..

There is no difference. A civilian population is a civilian population.

Wieluń
Frampol
Rotterdam
London
Belfast
Birmingham
Bristol
Cardiff
Clydebank
Coventry
Greenock
Sheffield
Swansea
Liverpool
Hull
Manchester
Portsmouth
Plymouth
Nottingham
Southampton
Paris
Liege
Lille
Antwerp
Stalingrad
Leningrad

Just to name some of them...

Were all civilian populations. The Germans new that civilians lived there...

[parsifal]

This is not going to be popular, but the blame for warcrimes does not rest with the SS. It is with the Nazi regime as a whole. It is true that warcrimes were committed by all nations, but the Germans stand out as the exception to the rule, even the Japanese.

Only the Germans issued illegal orders, contrary to the Hague conventions to shoot and murder Prisoners of War. That is an illegal order repeated by no other nation, not even the Japanese. The accusation of illegality cannot be levelled at the Japs, because they were no signatories to the Hague or Geneva conventions. The orders issued by Hitler were issued as secret orders, because it was known that they were not legal under international law.

So, in my view it is wrong to blame just one element of the German armed forces for the nations entire war guilt. And I have the findings of the Nuremberg trials and the peace treaties between germany to protect me when I state that. The nation of Germany was guilty of waging agrressive war, and state sponsored murder. We should forgive that....its more than sixty years, but we should never forget who, what and why.

I apologize if I offend the German members of this forum, but it is an issue I feel very strongly about. Who was responsible for the war and the guilt they carry for that.

[Hesekiel]

You know.. i could also make a long list with names of cities..
I think we have there a different opinion...
You are right if you say civilian is civilian... BUT.. in my eyes there is a big difference if it is known that a city is so overfilled with people that there is now place for them in the buildings, shelters or bunkers... The streets of the town was full with refugees .. and THIS is the fact i mean...
Bombing civilian cities is a crime.. Bombing a civilian city that is overfilled with refugees and this circumstance is known is simply a act of mass-homicide...
That is my personal opinion....
And... don´t forget to name the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki....

[Amsel]

I know there were other victims of war crime and continue to be up until this day. Times were very different back then in Germany during the war. I will reserve judgement on the Germans but not the crimes. That war was horrible and unecessary, and was made worse by the hare-brained racial policies of the goverment as well as it's excesses in taking human life. But I think the act of killing people illegally according to the laws of war comes down to a very slippery slope. Any one who orders it to be done is guilty of war crimes and should be killed. But what about shell shocked units? this seems to be a recurring theme throughout history of war. Civilian populations taking the brunt of the anger from weary or crazed troops.

[evangilder]

Not just civilians, but POWs as well. I was reading some yesterday about the liberation of Dachau. Americans separated out the SS from the other Wehrmacht soldiers and gunned down many because they were SS. They had just come from discovering train loads of dead bodies on their way to Dachau. After seeing that, it appears the Americans weren't feeling too forgiving. Coupled with some of Patton's quotes, there was quite a bloodbath outside of Dachau. War is hell.