RLM colours model paints discussion.

[Crimea_River]

OK to talk tanks but suggest you start a new thread, since this has nothing to do with RLM paint colours.

 

[Wurger]

I agree.

 

[onetenor]

My thinking on this is, knowing all of the changes and differences that can happen or be introduced to paint.I mean during and after manufacture. Why is it so important to paint a model in the exact shades that the factory put on the real thing when it is more realistic to have weathered paint finishes? Close enough does for me as long as it's representative of the real thing

 

[fubar57]

True but you have to start somewhere and as seen in my Post #36 the colour is nowhere near to close. I've got some pretty good Tamiya mixes from the guys here so I may forsake Vallejo until they get there labelling sh!t together. As I said, they are a nice paint but I've got a small box of Vallejo Model Air with sketchy colours, Model Color as well

 

[Wurger]

My thinking on this is, knowing all of the changes and differences that can happen or be introduced to paint.I mean during and after manufacture. Why is it so important to paint a model in the exact shades that the factory put on the real thing when it is more realistic to have weathered paint finishes? Close enough does for me as long as it's representative of the real thing

Because, not all of model assemblers are so skilled to make the weathering at all. Additionally not all planes look like wrecks.

 

[mikewint]

There are a few of us who do armour. Most discussions revolve around aircraft but there are no hard rules except the usual hot buttons, guns, politics, religion, etc. Though it is amazing what some will get quite excited about. Once got into a nasty "debate" with a new member over trains of all things!!!
I have a Panzerkampfwagen V Ausf. G; Panther Sd.Kfz 171; schwere Panzer Abteil 503 and a Panzerjager V Jagdpanther; Sonderkraftfahrzeug 173 Ausf. G; schwere Panzerjager Abteilung 654 (no time to take/post pics today)
Don't tend to keep old decals and usually tend to use whatever comes in the kit

 

[fubar57]

Just to reiterate my trust issues with Vallejo's labelling system, all called Grey Violet and all still on the market...

 

[Wayne Little]

That's a problem......

 

[stona]

Here's more or less the mid war RLM 74/75/76 colours.

View attachment 484041

I think you are referring to RLM 84 with has a greenish hue and it is a very late war colour used as an alternative to RLM 76. It was the Luftwaffe's version of RAF Sky.

These [late war] colours are RLM 81/82/83 with the undersurface of RLM 76 or 84.


James

A couple of points.

RLM 84 only exists in the minds of model builders and paint manufacturers as a matter of convenience. There is no record of an RLM 84 in any war time documentation. We don't know if it was genuinely a new colour, a pre-existing colour (given evidence from British CEAR's in 1940) or just a version of RLM 76 in which a late war formulation caused yellow pigments to predominate.

There is mounting and increasingly compelling evidence that RLM 83 was in fact a BLUE colour, designed for maritime use in the Mediterranean with some possible evidence for its use on aircraft in Scandinavia. Consequently there were two variations of RLM 81, a green hue and a brown hue. There used to be (maybe still is) a picture of some war time paints discovered in the Czech Republic on the JaPo site. There is a tin which I read as RLM 81 was clearly a dark green' paint, which supports the idea that two version of RLM 81 existed. The alternative is that one of the earlier paints was use in combination with RLM 82, presumably RLM 71, but this is conjecture not, in my opinion, supported by much evidence except in the immediate change over period.

About five years ago Michael produced an original 1943 report (Test order E2-45/19 (Flight verification of camouflage "Land") the last lines of which read.

"Entwicklung und Erprobung einer tarnung für Mittelmeereinsatz.: Abgeschlossen mit S-Bericht vom 10.11.43. Farbton 83 dunkelblau in Verbindung mit Farbton 72 schwarzgrün für See- und 70 dunkelgrün für Landflugzeuge zur Einführung vorgeschlagen."

"Development and testing of a camouflage for Mediterranean use.: Finished with S-report from 10.11.43. 83 dark blue hue proposed in conjunction with 72 hue black green for sea and 70 dark green for land planes to be introduced."

It takes a while for model paint manufacturers to catch up with new research! There are only two known documents that mention RLM 83, No surface protection list exists that lists the colour, because the paint was for unit or depot maintenance level, not for production.

RLM 81 and 82 were introduced earlier than previously thought, December 1943. Remember the often quoted dates come from collections of documents circulated to the Luftwaffe by the RLM (Sammelmitteilung), often long after some of the practices described were originally authorised.

Just saying that making definitive statements about 70 year old paint colours and technology will make you a hostage to fortune

Cheers

Steve

 

[fubar57]

Good stuff Steve, the main reason I stay away from late war aircraft. Back to the 3 bottles I posted. I noticed on the last bottle that it also gave an FS number(I know they are not direct matches for RLM colours) so I went to Urban's Colour Reference chart and compared the number to what is listed as RLM75. We all know about computer colour renditions but the color on Urbans site is closer to RLM75 than Vallejo gives us and Vallejo is closer to the wrong colour in my bottle...

​

Also note the difference in spelling on the first and third bottles

 

[stona]

At least for colours like that we do have some extant colour samples and for some (I can't check now) the original formulae. There really is no excuse for not getting something in the ball park.

I can't really comment on Vallejo paints particularly, except to say that from what I've seen there are other manufacturers that make better matches to RLM colours out of the bottle (or tin).

One thing I think has been mentioned, but needs emphasising, is that the variation in paint shades from the manufacturers, who were all making the same paints to the same recipes provided by Warnecke and Bohm, were not great at the point of manufacture. The company still exists.
We know for example that the formulation of RLM 66 changed considerably between the beginning and end of the war, yet the colour remained remarkably consistent.
The only colour which we can be sure varied enough to draw a complaint was RLM 02 and (from memory) this was early in the war.
Now, what variations occurred in the application of these paints at all the various sub-contractors and in the various levels of maintenance and repair is impossible to estimate. There were strict rules and guidelines for the application of all aircraft paints, but the idea that these were adhered to in some shed in a Bavarian forest spraying fins for Me 109 Ks would be naive at best.

Cheers

Steve

 

[fubar57]

Agreed. I've always wondered about and have yet to see the starting points for mixing camo colors of all nations. Since this is an RLM thread I'll stick here. You said "the original formulae" Is there a document I can find that has the mix to get RLM70 that says "Mix 3qts green to 1pt black" or what ever the colour combination is? I'm sure all camo starts from the basic colours or maybe not

 

[Wurger]

Just to reiterate my trust issues with Vallejo's labelling system, all called Grey Violet and all still on the market...

View attachment 484881​

IMHO the Vallejo's labelling system isn't a problem as long as the tinge of these paints is the same Geo. Just the Vallejo started offering them at the different time. The 71.052 is titled the Anthracite Grey actually. The colour appered the earliest and matching the RLM 75 quite close, was started to be used by modelers as the RLM paint. It seems that the Vallejo wanted to make a life easier and started labelled the paint with the Gray Violet - FS36134 that can be assiocitaed with the German RLM 75 colour. The 71.259 appeared when the Vallejo introduced the dedicated sets of colours for different air forces. To keep the order in a set all paints there got the kind of new labelling. However the earlier sets for the WW2 Luftwaffe ( Model Air 71193 ) contain paints with the older labelling too. Because of reserves those colours of the older labelling are still offered together with these new marked colours . Especially by smaller hobby shops where the supplies of paints aren't so often because of a little selling.

The main trouble are the published colour charts that may show the same colours of the different tinges . If you look at the Ullman's and the Eagle Editions samples you can note that .

the pic source: Comparison of Published Luftwaffe WW2 RLM Standards

And here is a set of chips with paints of different manufacturers.The main chip reference is the Merrick's book (Luftwaffe Camouflage and Markings 1933-1945 Vol.2 2005) .Comparing all of them the Vallejo Model Air 71.052 seems to be a little bit too dark contrary to the Vallejo Model Color 70.869 that is offered as a paint for the FS 36152- RAL7012-RLM75.

the pic source: RLM Luftwaffe comparison chart

Here are gathered all mentioned above FS numbers for the RLM 75. The FS 36122 is a number my reference states.. As you may notice the one is also dark but the Vallejo FS 36134 is still much darker though.

 

[le_steph40]

Hello,
Interesting variations here...
Luftwaffe RLM colors, LDv 521/1

 

[fubar57]

I don't doubt you Wojtek, it's just that I have a very long way to travel to pick up paint and trusting the labels and finding out the color is wrong is very expensive. It's the same for ordering through the mail. I can find the paint at roughly the same price but most of the postage is 3x the cost of the paint....wrong colour, money out the window

 

[Wurger]

You are right and I understand . Since we have had to close our local hobby shop here I had to go either 100 or 125 km to the nearest one if I needed to buy something. Fortunately both shops run the web sites and I can order all in the way. However I prefer making phone call to the net ordering. Even if I can use both ways I always make a list of needed colours checking on them firstly.. The list is written on a paper sheet and contains there all equivalents that fit the proper colours. I use the way because it may happen there can be a lack of the paint I want to buy... That's some work on this but without this , the purchasing of incorrect paints would be ,like you said , throwing money out of the window.

 

[stona]

Agreed. I've always wondered about and have yet to see the starting points for mixing camo colors of all nations. Since this is an RLM thread I'll stick here. You said "the original formulae" Is there a document I can find that has the mix to get RLM70 that says "Mix 3qts green to 1pt black" or what ever the colour combination is? I'm sure all camo starts from the basic colours or maybe not

No, because the formulae for the various paints are commercial formulae which include various commercial pigments as well as the various other elements that make up a paint or lacquer appropriate for use on aircraft (or the various types of material found on aircraft) and their proportions. They could be recreated commercially I imagine (I'm not an industrial coatings chemist) but would be of no use to a model builder at all.

As an example, I noted this response from Nick Millman on a message board somewhere, relating to RLM 81.

"Gustav Ruth of Hamburg (sub-contractors to Warnecke and Bohm) formula for RLM 81 consisted of zinc chromate, yellow, red oxide, carbon black and zinc white pigments, described by them as a "camouflage green". Zinc white has low tinting strength and the ratio of pigments as listed makes up into an olive brown shade where the green is almost in undertone. There are actually two undertones "pulling" the colour in opposite directions. The red oxide and black "pulls" towards brown and the yellow and black "pulls" towards green. Of the two yellow pigments involved one is known to turn darker and towards grey-green with exposure whilst the other darkens in mass tone and fades in tints. This suggests the colour once applied might not have been very stable. The formula is similar to the late war Japanese Army # 7/1-1 colour which demonstrated brown-green variance and although typically an olive brown shade was classified as a "green". The Gustav Ruth formula could not be said to produce a bright green or a strong olive green."

Ten or so years ago, when the first volume of Ken Merrick's 'Luftwaffe camouflage and Markings' came out some of the original colours were recreated from the original formulae and used for the 'paint chips' reproduced and included in the book. Jurgen Kiroff sourced original chemicals and other ingredients for each colour to the original formulae, and then made the pigments using the original rolling machines. Few model makers would go to such extremes!

Cheers

Steve

 

[fubar57]

Thanks Steve, way more involved than I imagined....c'est la vie

 

[lesliegl]

The infamous Dunkelgelb raises its head!

All I can say at this point is that Vallejo are going to release some new paints in the model air range that cover Dunkelgelb accurately from 1943 to 1945.

As a retired (hurt) Army Officer I now keep myself busy with modelbuilding and vehicle restorer currently working on restoring some later WWII German panzers to full working order I know exactly what shades of Dunkelgelb there are... and believe me, apart from the first iriteration (Dunkelgelb Nach Muster (Dark Yellow after sample/pattern)) it was changed.

The following photos are of modern reproductions of original formulas from shade cards made for my by a company in Germany from their own Chipset & document archive. The company, still going supplies the current German military with paint and supplied the factories and field repair units (amongst other companies) in WWII.

Dunkelgelb Nach Muster (Dark Yellow After Pattern/sample). This was the first shade produced and was used from February 1943 until the end of the Kursk offensive (operation Citadel. this was the colour that was originally applied to go into the RAL register as RAL 7028 (you won't rind it in todays register). Troops at the front complained that it was too bright.

View attachment 483496

so when building German armour this is the base colour to use from February 1943 to the end of operation citadel and associated operations.

In August 1942 RAL 7028 was accepted into the RAL register but was changed from the above shade due to complaints from the front. The shade that went into the RAL register and was used as base coat on all vehicles from August 1943 until 1944 was this:

View attachment 483497

This I personally call Dunkelgelb I A much more earthier tone.

From around June 1944 until November /December 1944 the colour changed again and although resembling the RAL8020 base coat of the Afrika Korps it is actually darker.
View attachment 483508
Allied intelligence reports on knocked out and captured vehicles in Normandy noted that base coats of these vehicles often differed. which gives us a nice between dates that new vehicles coming into the line on the German side would have this base colour while the older vehicles would have the previous colour.

The above colour I call Dunkelgelb II

The last variant of RAL 7028 appeared in November/December 1944 and proceeded until the end of the war. From January 1945 all Vehicles base coats became RAL 6003 Which was field tested on Tiger II tanks during Operation Panzerfaust in Budapest October 1944

View attachment 483502

You can clearly see that this vehicle's running gear is NOT dunkelgelb.

View attachment 483509
Above is the last variant of RAL 7028, or Dunkelgelb III as I call it. A much subdued variant of Dunkelgelb Nach Muster!

Those were the official chipset colours. Alternatives may, on occasion have been used depending on supply disruption. I will say right now that AK's Real Color 7028 set do not match these colours!

James

Looks like Humbrol with their authentic colours range of the 70's with their HP1 German Overall Sand might have been closer to the actual colour than was thought at the time rather than the current day Vallejo..Real Color..AK... type matches..i think Aunthentic HP 1 ended up as 83 Ochre in the current Humbrol range and is available in acrylic


Leslie

 

[lesliegl]

Indeed, it is the translation into English from Spanish.

If I get the chance in the next couple of days I will prepare and photograph some paint chips. I have one of my original Panthers (Panzer V) on winter schedule maintenance. There is a very large 700hp Maybach V-12 HL230 P30 on a test/work stand as it undergoes a minor rebuild. 2 of the cylinders were misfiring and some parts have to be remade and fitted. Once that is done and the beast works with no problems on the stand without sounding like an artillery piece firing and gives us that wonderful Maybach grumble that made allied soldiers go white then it can be refitted back into the engine compartment which is a very small area to work in!

I am trying to get hold of Rye Field Models' new Panther G with interior and Takom's Panther A with interior kits.

On my bench at the moment is Meng's Panther A late which I am building to copy one that I have in my warehouse that fought with Panzer Division Munchenberg in the Seelow Heights area and Berlin in 1945. This particular vehicle was folded in to the Panzer Division from the GrossDeutchland and didn't change the division insignia to the Munchenberg one.

View attachment 484744

I am looking for those respective division insignia in 1/35, so if anyone can help there with a link???

is it ok to talk about Panzers on here or is it just aircraft?

James

What Vallejo colours are using on the Panther in your pic??