Bf-109 gun camera

[alejandro_]

I have searched the forum and could not find a similar topic. Khazanov stated in his famous article that Gerrman fighters were not equipped with gun cameras. This was critisised in many discussions. Is there any specific detail on the type and number built for this devices?

Thanks.

 

[Crimea_River]

Well, I've seen gun camera footage of Allied fighters and bombers getting shot down and I doubt they're getting shot down by their own forces.

 

[Airframes]

Gun camera on the Bf109E3 on was mounted in one of the redundant MG ports, as the cannon were moved outboard. The early F series had a 'pod' on one wing. However, later versions very often had the camera 'shooting' via the Revi sight.
This is a very broad and loose summary, but yes, they had gun-cameras!

 

[Snautzer01]

Guncamera

 

[alejandro_]

Thanks for the answers. I am not sure why Khazanov stated that, I was thinking that maybe not all Bf-109 came with gun camera, especially late at war.

 

[Dannybb55]

Thanks for the answers. I am not sure why Khazanov stated that, I was thinking that maybe not all Bf-109 came with gun camera, especially late at war.

I seem to have read somewhere that gun cameras were not ubiquitous. The fighters all had the aperture but the camera was an added feature. There was aq lot of demand on the continental camera industry, Maybe only experten were carrying film.

 

[Maximowitz]

Khazanov was right. Very few Bf 109's were fitted with gun cameras - the footage you see over and over again on YouTube for example comes almost exclusively from Fw 190's. The Luftwaffe used such films mainly for training and propaganda purposes.

 

[VERSUCH]

I think the fl number is fl.32601 seimens wing camera...
Mike

 

[alejandro_]

Khazanov was right. Very few Bf 109's were fitted with gun cameras - the footage you see over and over again on YouTube for example comes almost exclusively from Fw 190's. The Luftwaffe used such films mainly for training and propaganda purposes.

I am just wondering if we all refer to the same when we talk about "gun cameras". The footage you see is video footage filmed with a video-camara. As you say there were very few and mainly used for training and propaganda purposes. However, the gun cameras Khazanov refers to must be photo cameras that take photos when guns are fired.

 

[tyrodtom]

Video cameras as we know them weren't around in the 40s. They had not remotely been reduced to the size you would mount in a aircraft.

Though I think the Henshel 293 AGM experimented with a crude tv camera.

But all the gun camera footage you see is gun cameras shooting on film, then converted to video much later.

 

[stona]

And Maximowitz is correct. Very rarely fitted to the Bf109,rarely,but more often to the Fw190. I'm not familiar enough with gun camera installation on other Luftwaffe types to comment.
Gun cameras were film cameras that took images when the guns were fired though some (all?) could be operated independently of the guns. There is plenty of footage from allied cameras of enemy pilots in parachutes. This does not mean that they were firing on the unfortunate airman,they would take the film to back up a future claim. After all a pilot in a parachute pretty much guarantees that his aircraft was a 100% destroyed.
Steve

 

[Airframes]

Most gun cameras utilised 16mm motion picture stock. In the case of US and RAF cameras, this was generally Kodak 16mm gun camera cine film, in monochrome, although some Kodachrome reversal film was used, in 35mm, in the late war period. (This was often 'scrounged' by GIs for use in their personal 35mm cameras, for those who possessed such 'modern' equipment, whereas in the RAF, apart from being an offence to have a personal camera on an operational station, photographic film was not easily accessible to the average serviceman or civilian.)
The Luftwaffe gun cameras, when fitted, used Agfa 16mm cine film.

 

[Maximowitz]

For some more information and reasons for the lack of gun cameras fitted to the Bf 109, take a look about halfway down the thread I've linked below and then read on.

Gun Camera Discussion on TOCH Forum

 

[FlexiBull]

Here you go. Well at least one Bf109F had a camera fitted.

Flexi

 

[Maximowitz]

Ah, but have you got a photo of them installing the video camera?

 

[CharlesBronson]

I have searched the forum and could not find a similar topic. Khazanov stated in his famous article that Gerrman fighters were not equipped with gun cameras. This was critisised in many discussions. Is there any specific detail on the type and number built for this devices?

Thanks.

I could post several links to Me-109 guncameras and photos of guncameras used,emplaced in me-109 but if I do that I would be given that retard of Khazanov some importance, like if he was something. I guess Khazanov want to be alone against the world of aviation, the statement is so stupid that deserve no further comment.

 

[Maximowitz]

Khazanov was (is) a little selective with his evidence no doubt, but then again he's certainly not alone in questioning the scores of certain Ostfront "Experten" and other topics.

Historians in a perfect world would be completely objective, but that does not sell books. Having a "radical new viewpoint" with "freshly discovered evidence" does. Even if it is wrong.

That said, with the opening of the Russian archives and the work of a few dedicated diligent researchers, it will be interesting to see how many claims can be matched to losses.

 

[stona]

I could post several links to Me-109 guncameras and photos of guncameras used,emplaced in me-109.

I too have some images of Bf109s with cameras fitted but it was unusual. I've sat through a lot of Luftwaffe gun camera footage. I'm struggling to remember any footage that can be proven to be from a Bf109.There are all sorts of innacurate captions and descriptions applied to footage on the internet. Infact in all the footage I've seen,captioned at the time,by the Luftwaffe, for educational purposes, none is from a Bf109. This doesn't mean that the type didn't ever carry cameras,just that it was not common place.
Over claiming was a problem for all sides. We'll probably never know how deliberate it was.Analysing the pattern of claims seems to be a popular pass time at the moment! Seeing a cluster of claims as a pilot approaches a landmark number is supposed to indicate fraud which,of course,it does not. It could be entirely coincidental. I can only think of one example where it was more or less proven to be fraudulent and that was the case of 4.JG/27's expert schwarm comprising Vogel,Sawallisch,Bendert and Stigler. Many had doubts at the time about their claims but they were caught red handed strafing sand dunes before returning to claim yet more victories by no less a figure than Hans-Arnold "Fifi" Stahlschmidt of 2.JG/27.

Cheers
Steve

 

[alejandro_]

Thank you guys for the answes and the photos, some really interesting stuff. I have been reading through captured evaluations of Bf-109 (and Bf-110) to check if there was something about the gun cameras in the description, but I did not come accross anything. The description of the German records regarding claims and victories in BA-MA does not mention anything about photos from gun cameras:

http://www.rustadp.vosi.biz/Niende/reichwest_vol4_1943.pdf

The BA-MA films cover Claims of crews of Day-Fighters, Night-Fighters, miscell aneou s uni t s, and Fl ak Batteries on all Fronts from September 1939 to the end of December 1944. The Films roughly form three parts: [A] Handwritten Daily Logs [severely limited and often duplicated until about the beginning of 1943]. Typed lists of the 'Ubersicht überbisher anerkannte Abschuße' or, roughly, 'lists of confi rmed kills known hitherto' . These omit the important crash-locations, and usualy cover claims to about mid-1942 only. And, [C] handwritten Daily Logs of Claims which cover, solely, the unit, the date and time, and the RLM Confirmation Number.

 

[alejandro_]

I found by chance this comment in an interview of Johannes Steinhoff:

I poured a good burst into this P-38 and the pilot rolled over, and I saw him bail out. I had this on gun camera also.

It seems to be the exception rather than the rule.

Interview: Johannes Steinhoff