P-39 vs P-40

[Demetrious]

Originally Posted by claidemore

Why do so many articles claim the Soviets downplayed the contribution of lend lease aircraft (when they are taking about the P63), yet everyone knows the Soviets gave plenty of praise to the P39 Kobra? Cold War era, sure, but now?

What they were downplaying, as far as I understand, was the quantity of the aid, not the quality of the planes received. Their Heroes Of The Great Patriotic War could praise the P-39 as much as they wanted, as long as the Party made it clear that those handfuls of planes were drops in the bucket compared to Soviet aircraft production.

[Juha]

Hello Demetrious
I'm not sure, because what you wrote mean that Communist Party of SU was ready to accept that gready capitalists with they lackeys could produce as good products as the First Socialist State in history in spite of the guiding hand of its never erring Politbyro directing its glorious scientists and in spite of all the resources its beloved leader and always efficient peoples had directed to aerodynamic research institutes.

Juha

[michaelmaltby]

Claidemore - you've asked three good questions.

I've been thinking about the "Agreement of 1943" re P-63 use by the Soviets. It may well have been an agreement about aircraft delivery -- after all - the Bell plant started P-63 deliveries in late 1943. Until then, more P-39's had been delivered in crates via sea to Iran, assembled there and delivered to the front - than had been flow in via Alaska. Virtually all P-63's were flown - which makes sense if they were for use in the Eastern Campaign (August Storm).

My previous post (#64) quotes a reference to a participating unit in August Storm re-equipping from I-16's to P-63's in August 1945. If this is indeed true (VG 33 why don't you confirm or disprove) the unit would have had no time whatsoever before taking the P-63 operational.

BUT - it suggests that the Soviets didn't see the P-63 as a replacement for the P-39 units but rather as an upgrade for air units operating obsolete or less competitive machines (such as the I-16).

Having a few seasoned P-39 pilots evaluate the P-63 in combat in the west would make a lot of sense - new laminar flow wing, new C of G with the 37 mm canon shifted. etc. etc.

Why there is no mention of P-63's in L.L. documents? -- I can't fathom. Are there other examples of controls on L.L. aircraft -- the Russians wanted the B-17 and the answer was no -- they wanted the B-26 and the answer was no. (We know how they got the B-17 technology and the B-29 anyway)

But, all in all, I don't think there is anything conspiratorial about P-63 delivery and use - just the Soviets staging material into East in preparation for a HUGE, HUGE OFFENSIVE. Which the Soviet Command pulled off on schedule - three months to the day after V.E. Day - per their Yalta commitment.

Unlike the western allies - who had plans to transfer resources to the Pacific for the final fight - the Soviets had the resources to mount August Storm without transferring a single plane.tank or soldier out of Europe.

All in all quite a feat and little appreciated in the west.

MM
Toronto

[michaelmaltby]

Further to the above: [From www.lendlease.ru]

"... American Lend-lease to the Soviet Union can be divided into the following phases:

- "pre Lend-lease" 22 June 1941 to 30 September 1941
- first protocol period from 1 October 1941 to 30 June 1942 (signed 1 October 1941)
- second protocol period from 1 July 1942 to 30 June 1943 (signed 6 October 1942)
- third protocol period from 1 July 1943 to 30 June 1944 (signed 19 October 1943)

- fourth protocol period from 1 July 1944, (signed 17 April 1945), formally ended 12 May 1945 but deliveries continued for the duration of the war with Japan (which the Soviet Union entered only 8 August 1945) under the "Milepost" agreement until 2 September 1945 when Japan capitulated. 20 September 1945 all Lend-Lease to Russia was terminated..."

MM

[claidemore]

MM:
What it looks like to me, just a theory, was that there was no stipulation to 'not' use the P63 against Germany, just an understanding that the P63's would be used to build up for the operation against Japan.
This makes sense, as there was no urgent need for another new fighter design to use against the Luftwaffe, and no reason for the Americans to stipulate that it not be used there.

[claidemore]

It's interesting that the Free French were delivered P63s in 1945, and they would definately have been earmarked for use against Germany.

[VG-33]

Originally Posted by michaelmaltby

VG:33 - " ... Viktor Koulikov, P-39 and P-63 in USSR, Avions N°90, Sept 2000.... "

A link would be nice.


MM

Unfortunately, only in russian (maybe with google translater...)

P-63 ????????? ? ????????? ?????

regards

[michaelmaltby]

Thank you VG-33.

MM

[Tzaw1]

Very rough translation, but sense is such:

At 1 May in PVO regiments are 51 P-63s.
At first Kingkobras received 28th rgt PVO near Moscow.
At August 17th and 821st regiments PVO received 10 planes each.
Autumn 1944 (it seems a mistake, probably 1945) a few planes received 39 IAP in Malino (near Moscow).

Summer VVS started rearmament. Priority had Air Forces at Far East.
They altered the route ALSIB, form Markovo to Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky, and from Krasnoyarsk route to led off through Chita to Ukkurey (Ukkurey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) for rearmament of 12th Air Force.
By first, apparently, P-63 equipped 190th division of the Major General V.V. Fokin, which was relocated in Transbaykal in June 1945 Since June 24 it began to obtain "Kingcobras" and by August 2 finished retraining. During the combat operations in Manchuria it flew from two airfields - "Ural” and "Leningrad under city Choibalsan in the Mongolia. After war this division a certain time stood under Ulan-Ude.
There, in the 12th air force at the Transbaikal Front fighted the 245th division, in composition of which were two regiments (940th and 781st), that flew on P-63. In July-August the first of "Kingcobras" they entered in 128th the mixed division, which was being based himself on Kamchatka. P-63 arrived into the 9th and 10th air forces too. For them they lenghten route to Khabarovsk. Here at the beginning military operations it was saved by 97 P-63, which did not have time to give on the regiments.

[michaelmaltby]

Thanks Tzaw1

MM

[Tzaw1]

Next fragment:

At this time first P-63 entered into the 7th fighter division VVS of Pacific Ocean fleet. By August 9, when started war with Japan, division had 10 "Kingcobras". About twenty arrived already in the course of military operations, until August 31. They assumed no participation in the operations against the Japanese.

[Colin1]

Originally Posted by Tzaw1

At this time first P-63 entered into the 7th fighter division VVS of Pacific Ocean fleet. By August 9, when started war with Japan, division had 10 "Kingcobras". About twenty arrived already in the course of military operations, until August 31. They assumed no participation in the operations against the Japanese.

What year was this?
I have a record of one Kingcobra being destroyed by the Japanese among 62 (if I recall) of all Soviet types destroyed, at the end of hostilities when the Soviets exploited Japan's exhaustion at the close of WWII to take Sakhalin.

[claidemore]

Originally Posted by VG-33

Unfortunately, only in russian (maybe with google translater...)

P-63 ????????? ? ????????? ?????

regards

With Babelfish translator:

Translation result for http://www.airpages.ru/uk/p63_2.shtml

Tzaw1 does it better!

[Tzaw1]

Originally Posted by Colin1

What year was this?

1945, of course.

To be continued

[michaelmaltby]

Now we are getting somewhere with this P-63 puzzle.

Back at #64 of this thread I posted this:

"The Soviet air cover and support for the Shimushu landings were provided by the 128 SAD, their 888 IAP had the P-63 Kingcobra, which they had received only in August 1945, before that they remained the last active Soviet fighter regiment with the I-16."

The recent translated material seems to mesh with this timeline. August Storm was obviously well-and-long thought out by the General Staff -- executed flawlessly.

But I am struck by the LATE DATE conversion of the last I-16 unit to P-63's as part of the August Storm build up. What that tells me is the QUALITY of fighters that the Soviets could get away with in the Far East from 1941 to '45. Much the same as the USAAF using P-39's in the Panama Canal Zone

MM