Jerrybandit67
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- Mar 11, 2024
Has there been enagements between P-51D and Ki-84 during the pacific war?
Ki-84 vs P-51 engagemants 1945
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Mike Williams
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- Oct 19, 2006
Franks were claimed, see attached for example:
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Jerrybandit67
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- Mar 11, 2024
were any p-51s lost to ki-84?
Here are some encounters I know about:
I have one during 1944 too:
On 4 October 1944, Captain Yukiyoshi Wakamatsu, commander of the 2nd Chutai of the 85th Sentai, based at Canton, shot down the two P-51B Mustangs of the 23rd Group's 76th Squadron flown by Henry Leisses and Rex B Shull over Wuchow.
Here are ones during 1945:
On 28 July 1945, a large group of P-51D Mustangs appeared over Ozuki on a fighter sweep. The Ki-84s of the 47th Dokoritsu Hiko Chutai were caught during take-off and suffered heavy losses. Eight Ki-84s were destroyed, and six pilots perished. Among the fallen were all the Chutai commanders: Captain Ohmori, Captain Matsuzaki and Captain Hatano. This is not an accurate assessment of Ki-84s vs P-51s however as the Ki-84s were caught during take off and suffered from speed and altitude disadvantage.
On 14 August 1945 at noon, eight Ki-84s of the 47th Sentai commanded by Lieutenant Oishi managed to jump a section of P-51Ds that were reconnoitring over the Bungo Strait. The Japanese reported five aerial victories for the loss of Warrant Officer Nakamura. The Japanese only destroyed one P-51 that being the P-51D-20 of 40FS, 35FG flown by Charles L Burman who was shot down and crashed near Kyushu. This shows that the encounter was very even as the Ki-84s and P-51s both shot down one of each other.
I have one during 1944 too:
On 4 October 1944, Captain Yukiyoshi Wakamatsu, commander of the 2nd Chutai of the 85th Sentai, based at Canton, shot down the two P-51B Mustangs of the 23rd Group's 76th Squadron flown by Henry Leisses and Rex B Shull over Wuchow.
Here are ones during 1945:
On 28 July 1945, a large group of P-51D Mustangs appeared over Ozuki on a fighter sweep. The Ki-84s of the 47th Dokoritsu Hiko Chutai were caught during take-off and suffered heavy losses. Eight Ki-84s were destroyed, and six pilots perished. Among the fallen were all the Chutai commanders: Captain Ohmori, Captain Matsuzaki and Captain Hatano. This is not an accurate assessment of Ki-84s vs P-51s however as the Ki-84s were caught during take off and suffered from speed and altitude disadvantage.
On 14 August 1945 at noon, eight Ki-84s of the 47th Sentai commanded by Lieutenant Oishi managed to jump a section of P-51Ds that were reconnoitring over the Bungo Strait. The Japanese reported five aerial victories for the loss of Warrant Officer Nakamura. The Japanese only destroyed one P-51 that being the P-51D-20 of 40FS, 35FG flown by Charles L Burman who was shot down and crashed near Kyushu. This shows that the encounter was very even as the Ki-84s and P-51s both shot down one of each other.
Also, I think Capt Burman was shot down by ground fire. Failed to Return (FTR) strafing mission off Kyushu, Japan in P-51D 44-63335 fatally hit by ground fire and crashed into water. Killed in Action (KIA). 14-Aug-45. MACR 15701.
The plane that was shot down by the 47th was probably P-47N, 44-88118, 507FG, 465 FS, flown by Lt. William McDaniel. He was executed by the Japanese.
The plane that was shot down by the 47th was probably P-47N, 44-88118, 507FG, 465 FS, flown by Lt. William McDaniel. He was executed by the Japanese.
While Ki-84s and Ki-44s were involved on 4 October 1944, I haven't found any victory claims made by the Ki-44s so the only aircraft that scored victories was the Ki-84. (As far as I know)
What you mentioned about Charles Burman is interesting because if he was attacking ground targets near Kyushu, then he was probably shot down by the Ki-100 of Naoyuki Ogata. Ogata claimed a P-51D on the 14 August 1945 over Ashiya Airfield. Ashiya airfield is right on the northern tip of Kyushu and crucially, next to water. This means that Burman would have been attacking Ashiya airfield and was shot down and crashed in water. Considering how many times I've seen aircraft being reported as shot down by AAA when in fact they were shot down by aircraft, it's reasonable to assume he was shot down by Ogata.
William McDaniel's P-47's crash location was the Keijo region in South Korea so he couldn't have been shot down by the 47th sentai but rather he was shot down by 22nd or 85th sentai Ki-84s
The P-51 shot down by the 47th sentai Ki-84s was probably the P-51D-20 of 78FS 15FG flown by Philip Schlamberg
What you mentioned about Charles Burman is interesting because if he was attacking ground targets near Kyushu, then he was probably shot down by the Ki-100 of Naoyuki Ogata. Ogata claimed a P-51D on the 14 August 1945 over Ashiya Airfield. Ashiya airfield is right on the northern tip of Kyushu and crucially, next to water. This means that Burman would have been attacking Ashiya airfield and was shot down and crashed in water. Considering how many times I've seen aircraft being reported as shot down by AAA when in fact they were shot down by aircraft, it's reasonable to assume he was shot down by Ogata.
William McDaniel's P-47's crash location was the Keijo region in South Korea so he couldn't have been shot down by the 47th sentai but rather he was shot down by 22nd or 85th sentai Ki-84s
The P-51 shot down by the 47th sentai Ki-84s was probably the P-51D-20 of 78FS 15FG flown by Philip Schlamberg
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Jerrybandit67
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- Mar 11, 2024
I heard about a ki-84 Ace pilot Tomojiro Ogawa
Where he shot down 5 P-51s and 4 thunderbolts
Alright, here's a quote from " Ki-44 Tojo Aces of WWII" by Nicholas Millman: ", pg 43. "At the end of September [1944], the 85th Sentai received the first six examples of the Ki-84 to be allocated to the unit and it would begin flying combat sorties from October 4...On that date Wakamatsu led a mixed force of four Ki-84s and four Ki-44s into combat against Mustangs over Wuchow. Wakamatsu claimed one P-51 shot down while his wingmen ...also claimed a Mustang each."
The other quote is from a Japanese Web site:
August 14, 1944P-47(507FG, 465 FS) was attacked by 2 Japanese fighters (Hien?) and was afire while patrolling along the coast of Kyushu and crashed into the sea. 2nd Lt. William McDaniel bailed out and was taken prisoner. He was sent to Seibu A/D HQ in Fukoka and was executed by beheading at Aburayama on the following day"
Kyushus, although close to Korea, is not South Korea.
The other quote is from a Japanese Web site:
August 14, 1944P-47(507FG, 465 FS) was attacked by 2 Japanese fighters (Hien?) and was afire while patrolling along the coast of Kyushu and crashed into the sea. 2nd Lt. William McDaniel bailed out and was taken prisoner. He was sent to Seibu A/D HQ in Fukoka and was executed by beheading at Aburayama on the following day"
Kyushus, although close to Korea, is not South Korea.
That is Aug 1945 not 1944.
507th FG didn't form until Oct 1944. It deployed to Ie Shima (small island off Okinawa) with P-47N in June 1945, flying its first combat mission on 1 July. From Ie Shima, they flew missions over southern Japan (Kyushu), mainland China and Korea.
On 4 October 1944, four Ki-84s and four Ki-44s of the 85th Sentai attacked P-51B Mustangs of the 76FS 23FG and claimed five shot down. The claims were made by Tai-i. Yukiyoshi Wakamatsu and Gunso. Misao Okubo both of whom were flying Ki-84s meaning this encounter had Ki-84s shooting down P-51s.
I made a mistake on my earlier post when I said that William McDaniel was shot down by 22nd or 85th Sentai Ki-84s over Korea on 14 August. The Ki-84s of the 22nd and 85th Sentai actually fought against the P-47Ns over Korea on the 13 August 1945 so one day earlier.
On 13 August 1945 over Korea, the 22nd and 85th Sentai Ki-84s actually shot down the P-47N flown by Lt. Dallas Yeargain who crashed at Kaijo South Korea. The P-47N could not have been McDaniel's as I originally thought since McDaniel was shot down a day later. For Yeargain's loss his loss report says he went missing on 13 August 1945, after he "made a head on pass at an 'Oscar' and was hit in the oil lines." There were no Oscars in the battle that day but Ki-84 'Franks' were.
McDaniel's loss report says he went missing on 14 August 1945. On this day he was last seen on fire and in a dive being chased by two 'Tojos'. The location of his loss is "37 degrees 20 min N, 126 degrees 40 min E". This location is Jeongwang-dong near Seoul so I can't see how he was the victim of the 47th Sentai since they fought over the Bungo Strait which is very far from McDaniel's offically reported crash location.
I also looked at Charles Burman's P-51 loss location and it says he crashed in water in the Bungo Strait. This location matches the 47th Sentai battle perfectly so the 47th shot him down.
On 14 August 1945, P-51D-20 of 78FS 15FG flown by Philip Schlamberg's crash location of Futagawa is too far from the Bungo Strait so he couldn't have been shot down by the 47th DHC. Ki-84s of the 246th Sentai fought a battle over Lake Biwa to the north of Kyoto with American "P-47s". It seems likely that Schlamberg's P-51 was shot down by the Ki-84s of the 246th Sentai since Futagowa is fairly close to Lake Biwa and the Japanese mistook the P-51s for P-47s.
Final Conclusions:
4 October 1944:
85th Sentai Ki-84s flown by Tai-i. Yukiyoshi Wakamatsu and Gunso. Misao Okubo shoot down 2 P-51Bs of 76FS 23FG over Wuchow.
13 August 1945:
22nd or 85th Sentai Ki-84s shoot down P-47N of 507FG flown by Dallas Yeargain over Keijo, Korea
14 August 1945:
47th Sentai Ki-84s shoot down P-51D of 40FS 35FG flown by Charles L Burman who crashed in the Bungo Strait.
246th Sentai Ki-84s shoot down P-51D of 78FS 15FG flown by Philip Schlamberg who crashed at Futagawa not too far from Lake Biwa.
As for the P-47N flown by William McDaniel who was shot down by two 'Tojos' and crashed at Jeongwang-dong, I really can't say for definite who shot him down. It's possible he was shot down by the Ki-100 of the 59th Sentai flown by Naoyuki Ogata who claimed a P-51D over Ashiya airfield. However, due to the big distance between Ashiya and Jeongwang-dong I highly doubt this is the case.
Do you mind sending me a link to that Japanese website you mentioned here? I'm interested to see what else it says.
I made a mistake on my earlier post when I said that William McDaniel was shot down by 22nd or 85th Sentai Ki-84s over Korea on 14 August. The Ki-84s of the 22nd and 85th Sentai actually fought against the P-47Ns over Korea on the 13 August 1945 so one day earlier.
On 13 August 1945 over Korea, the 22nd and 85th Sentai Ki-84s actually shot down the P-47N flown by Lt. Dallas Yeargain who crashed at Kaijo South Korea. The P-47N could not have been McDaniel's as I originally thought since McDaniel was shot down a day later. For Yeargain's loss his loss report says he went missing on 13 August 1945, after he "made a head on pass at an 'Oscar' and was hit in the oil lines." There were no Oscars in the battle that day but Ki-84 'Franks' were.
McDaniel's loss report says he went missing on 14 August 1945. On this day he was last seen on fire and in a dive being chased by two 'Tojos'. The location of his loss is "37 degrees 20 min N, 126 degrees 40 min E". This location is Jeongwang-dong near Seoul so I can't see how he was the victim of the 47th Sentai since they fought over the Bungo Strait which is very far from McDaniel's offically reported crash location.
I also looked at Charles Burman's P-51 loss location and it says he crashed in water in the Bungo Strait. This location matches the 47th Sentai battle perfectly so the 47th shot him down.
On 14 August 1945, P-51D-20 of 78FS 15FG flown by Philip Schlamberg's crash location of Futagawa is too far from the Bungo Strait so he couldn't have been shot down by the 47th DHC. Ki-84s of the 246th Sentai fought a battle over Lake Biwa to the north of Kyoto with American "P-47s". It seems likely that Schlamberg's P-51 was shot down by the Ki-84s of the 246th Sentai since Futagowa is fairly close to Lake Biwa and the Japanese mistook the P-51s for P-47s.
Final Conclusions:
4 October 1944:
85th Sentai Ki-84s flown by Tai-i. Yukiyoshi Wakamatsu and Gunso. Misao Okubo shoot down 2 P-51Bs of 76FS 23FG over Wuchow.
13 August 1945:
22nd or 85th Sentai Ki-84s shoot down P-47N of 507FG flown by Dallas Yeargain over Keijo, Korea
14 August 1945:
47th Sentai Ki-84s shoot down P-51D of 40FS 35FG flown by Charles L Burman who crashed in the Bungo Strait.
246th Sentai Ki-84s shoot down P-51D of 78FS 15FG flown by Philip Schlamberg who crashed at Futagawa not too far from Lake Biwa.
As for the P-47N flown by William McDaniel who was shot down by two 'Tojos' and crashed at Jeongwang-dong, I really can't say for definite who shot him down. It's possible he was shot down by the Ki-100 of the 59th Sentai flown by Naoyuki Ogata who claimed a P-51D over Ashiya airfield. However, due to the big distance between Ashiya and Jeongwang-dong I highly doubt this is the case.
Do you mind sending me a link to that Japanese website you mentioned here? I'm interested to see what else it says.
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Jerrybandit67
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- Mar 11, 2024
were there P-51D losses by N1K1s in 1945?
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Yes
On 8 July 1945 16 N1K1s of the Tsukuba Kokutai fought against 20 P-51Ds near Tokyo. The N1K1s claimed three P-51s shot down and two P-51s were lost after they were shot down near Hyakurigahara naval base
I have one for the N1K2 as well. On 12 April 1945 Yokosuka Kokutai N1K2s and 302nd Kokutai J2Ms as well as IJAAF force aircraft intercepted B-29s and P-51Ds over Tokyo. Famous ace Kaneyoshi Muto who was flying an N1K2 of the Yokosuka kokutai (probably with the tail code with the backwards "E" and 104) was credited with a P-51. His victim was probably the P-51 flown by Gordon A Christoe who was last seen being attacked by an enemy fighter.
On 8 July 1945 16 N1K1s of the Tsukuba Kokutai fought against 20 P-51Ds near Tokyo. The N1K1s claimed three P-51s shot down and two P-51s were lost after they were shot down near Hyakurigahara naval base
I have one for the N1K2 as well. On 12 April 1945 Yokosuka Kokutai N1K2s and 302nd Kokutai J2Ms as well as IJAAF force aircraft intercepted B-29s and P-51Ds over Tokyo. Famous ace Kaneyoshi Muto who was flying an N1K2 of the Yokosuka kokutai (probably with the tail code with the backwards "E" and 104) was credited with a P-51. His victim was probably the P-51 flown by Gordon A Christoe who was last seen being attacked by an enemy fighter.
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