Banzai!: General discussion of the Kamikaze and Ramming

[JoeB]

There is a picture of a Judy coming in with it's dive brakes out, but it's hard to tell the degree of the dive from the picture.

You can see the angle in this picture montage video, from the smoke trail after it hit, around 28 seconds in, not so steep:
Kamikaze Pilot Strikes USS Essex - November 25, 1944

The tail number of the a/c is visible identifying it as that flown by Yoshinori Yamaguchi of the Yoshino Special Attack Unit, from Malabacat a/f Philippines, hit USS Essex Nov 25 1944. Note that this attack is listed on the link I gave in previous post but with the wrong type of a/c, says Type 99 Carrier Bomber rather than actual radial Susei (Judy) type.

Joe

 

[RCAFson]

With about every gun in the fleet putting rounds in the air, how could anybody venture a guess that a diving fighter had structural failure?

The following table indicates the altitudes at which suicide planes first were sighted by ships during the period October-May:

This table summarizes approximate height of kamikazes at first detection:

Altitude-------------Oct.-Jan.----Feb.-May
---------------------Percent ---Percent
Low (less than 500') 38----35
Intermediate (500'-2,999') 14----41
High (3,000' or over) 48-----24
HyperWar: Anti-Suicide Action Summary

You can see that from Oct 44-Jan 45, 52% of kamikazes came in very low, and from Feb-May 45, 76% came in very low (at least what I would consider very low). This was probably because of need to get under the radar coverage. Low altitude means that diving attacks can't build up that much airspeed. IIRC, the average kamikaze pilot simply didn't have the skills to make high speed, high altitude dives, so a low altitude lower speed approach was typical.

 

[tyrodtom]

If the pictures are in sequence, it looks like the first picture has him in about a 45 degree dive, then he levels out to correct, then steepens again just before impact,
But the last 3 pictures have no positive horizontal line to judge from. You don't know if or not the photo is cropped, so you can't judge horizontal from the photo margins.

 

[tyrodtom]

We'd have to ask some of the very experienced pilots on here as to how much speed a WW2 era aircraft could pick up from a 250 mph speed at 500 ft, if he went into a steep dive.
From my limited experience in light aircraft, you pick up speed pretty quick.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

the average kamikaze pilot simply didn't have the skills to make high speed, high altitude dives, so a low altitude lower speed approach was typical.

And what skills do you think would have been required???

 

[FLYBOYJ]

We'd have to ask some of the very experienced pilots on here as to how much speed a WW2 era aircraft could pick up from a 250 mph speed at 500 ft, if he went into a steep dive.
From my limited experience in light aircraft, you pick up speed pretty quick.

It will depend on the type of aircraft. For the most part a 500' of altitude would hardly be noticible at 250 mph, at least in a higher performing GA airplane. You could lose 500' "in a flash" just by allowing the aircraft to get out of trim or by putting a little pressure on the stick. Taking a "wag" at this however, if you were to point the nose straight down at 250 I'd say you might see 300 by the time you lose 500' or slam into the ground (which ever comes first.

 

[JoeB]

If the pictures are in sequence, it looks like the first picture has him in about a 45 degree dive, then he levels out to correct, then steepens again just before impact,
But the last 3 pictures have no positive horizontal line to judge from. You don't know if or not the photo is cropped, so you can't judge horizontal from the photo margins.

Look at the later pictures of the plane's smoke trail after it hit, not the actual photo's of the plane still in flight. It's definitely the same event; and the angle is pretty clear from that smoke trail.

As was mentioned in another post, suicide a/c usually approached from at most moderate altitudes; some dived steeply eventually but only from a pretty low starting point. Anyway it's clear that crashing at particularly high speeds was not a particular goal of 'special attack' a/c but just evading fighter interception and AA and hitting ships. It's true that a high speed target was harder for AA than a slow one all else equal, but all else wasn't equal if predictable higher altitude approach made the a/c easier to detect and intercept; and also manuever was hard for AA gun systems to cope with, it still is.

John Toland's "The Rising Sun" had a chapter on a kamikaze pilot who narrowly missed his target at a shallow dive angle and survived to be captured. It wasn't that hard to miss, though outside the freak occurence of the pilot surviving, there was no way to tell a near miss that was just a miss from one where the pilot or controls had been disabled by AA fire just in time to cause the miss.

Re: your question about how much the plane would accelerate, you can do a rough calculation of that similar to the one I outlined in post 30. Substitute a lower terminal velocity for the plane, perhaps 500mph at sl, and add the plane's engine's effect on acceleration, but that's not big for a WWII prop plane, 'thrust/weight' at already high speed might be 25% or less. Under those rough assumptions a plane going 250mph at 3kft will be going around 360 when it hits the water in a vertical dive, and that's neglecting entirely the time and energy bleed off in making high speed partial split-S to go from horizontal to vertical, plus as we see the actual dive angles were not usually near vertical.

Joe

 

[RCAFson]

And what skills do you think would have been required???

First off, flying an advanced aircraft like a Zero or Judy at high speed and high altitude requires a lot of navigational skills, but also things like the ability to control an advanced engine system, oxygen system and radio even, since target selection might have to be made by other aircraft. However, consider a pilot flying a Zeke, who begins a high speed, 45deg dive from 15000 ft. The target will be about 7500 yds, slant range, away. Even at 200 yds per second (360 knots), it will take about 38 seconds to impact the target. A 27 knot target will move about 600 yds during this time, and if it turns as well, this sets up a rather complex geometry, where the pilot must be continuously correcting his flight path, and has to do so in an aircraft where the controls are becoming very heavy, and may be nearly immobile. If the pilot does fly this kind of approach he has only one chance to hit the target since a go around will not be possible. IMHO, high speed high altitude dives would have been reserved for pilots with fairly advanced flight training.

OTOH, flying more slowly, at low altitude, gives the pilot more control and better probability of hitting a radically maneuvering target, because the control corrections can be made with more time before impact.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

During training Kamikazes were taught to attack from the vertical and horizontal aiming between the bridge and smokestacks or actually attempting to enter the smokestack while attacking from the vertical. From the horizontal they were told to aim at a point above the water line, carrier elevators or the lower portions of the smoke stacks. I believe there was no mention of speed during these attacks.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

First off, flying an advanced aircraft like a Zero or Judy at high speed and high altitude requires a lot of navigational skills, but also things like the ability to control an advanced engine system, oxygen system and radio even, since target selection might have to be made by other aircraft.

If you're talking about teaching a pilot how to fly an aircraft like a Judy or Zero operationally in a skill consistency for a rated military pilot, yes, but I can tell you that things like "advanced engine system, oxygen system and radio" are not as difficult as you're putting them to be, evidently you have no flying experience.

However, consider a pilot flying a Zeke, who begins a high speed, 45deg dive from 15000 ft. The target will be about 7500 yds, slant range, away. Even at 200 yds per second (360 knots), it will take about 38 seconds to impact the target. A 27 knot target will move about 600 yds during this time, and if it turns as well, this sets up a rather complex geometry, where the pilot must be continuously correcting his flight path, and has to do so in an aircraft where the controls are becoming very heavy, and may be nearly immobile. If the pilot does fly this kind of approach he has only one chance to hit the target since a go around will not be possible. IMHO, high speed high altitude dives would have been reserved for pilots with fairly advanced flight training.

One of the hardest things to do is to teach a "student" pilot how to fly straight and level on a given course. It is easier to teach a student pitch maneuvers than it is to teach coordinated turns and maneuvers in the horizontal. At a "moderate" altitude all one had to do is point and dive (directional control with rudder) and this was indicated in a manual written to train Kamikazes. Speed is controlled with power (of course) and pitch angle, and if the aircraft if so equipped, dive brakes. You can speculate all you want but it's a lot easier than you think to take an aircraft and point it at a target even if it is moving in the ocean - what makes it difficult is the fact you're getting shot at and you're on a straight non-evasive course.

OTOH, flying more slowly, at low altitude, gives the pilot more control and better probability of hitting a radically maneuvering target, because the control corrections can be made with more time before impact.

You are correct but flying low and slow also sets you up as a nice jucey target - either by ships guns or defending fighters.

The REAL reason why Kamikazes attacks were attempted from lower altitudes were two fold - 1) To escape radar and visual detection (as earlier mentioned) and 2) To avoid fighters at altitude who would tear up low time minimally trained pilots who either did not receive any advanced flight training where they can perform evasive maneuvers and/ or flying aircraft weighted down by their bomb load.

 

[tyrodtom]

Most of the Kamakazi were inexperienced pilots, especially later in the war. But some of the early missions were carried out by regular combat groups suddenly transitioned to a Special attack squadron.

And throughout the campaign experienced pilots also joined in, wheather it was due to each pilot's personel code, or peer pressure, who knows.

I've read of one pilot who performed a loop, just before crashing into the hanger bay of a carrier. If it's true, it must have been a fairly good pilot, who chose to go out with a flair.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Most of the Kamakazi were inexperienced pilots, especially later in the war. But some of the early missions were carried out by regular combat groups suddenly transitioned to a Special attack squadron.

And throughout the campaign experienced pilots also joined in, wheather it was due to each pilot's personel code, or peer pressure, who knows.

I've read of one pilot who performed a loop, just before crashing into the hanger bay of a carrier. If it's true, it must have been a fairly good pilot, who chose to go out with a flair.

The one way mission of the Kamikaze lended it self to be easily trained for (no pun intended). As long as a low time pilot had minimal training, can get the aircraft in the air and follow an escort, the rest was based on the individuals mental ability to carry out their orders. There were many dynamics built into this mission (JoeB pointed this out earlier) but for the most part the perceived skill level required to carry out the attack did not vary, be it in the vertical or horizontal.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

"Dive attack

This varies depending on the type of the aircraft. If you are approaching the enemy from a height of 6,000m, adjust your speed twice; or from a lower height of 4,000m, adjust speed once.

When you begin your dive, you must harmonise the height at which you commence the final attack with your speed. Beware of over-speeding and a too-steep angle of dive that will make the controls harder to respond to your touch. But an angle of dive that is too small will result in reduced speed and not enough impact on crashing."

Notes from a suicide manual | World news | The Guardian

 

[tyrodtom]

I read the book "Blossoms in the Wind" a few months ago. It written with the help of Kamakazi survivors, trained but never used.
Lots of casualties during training due to pilot error, of course, but a lot of engine failures also, because of poor gas and poor maintenance.

Even the Ohka ( Baka) pilots had glider versions of their aircraft to practice in, but most got very little training because of the fuel shortage.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Even the Ohka ( Baka) pilots had glider versions of their aircraft to practice in, but most got very little training because of the fuel shortage.

 

[CobberKane]

"Dive attack

This varies depending on the type of the aircraft. If you are approaching the enemy from a height of 6,000m, adjust your speed twice; or from a lower height of 4,000m, adjust speed once.

When you begin your dive, you must harmonise the height at which you commence the final attack with your speed. Beware of over-speeding and a too-steep angle of dive that will make the controls harder to respond to your touch. But an angle of dive that is too small will result in reduced speed and not enough impact on crashing."

Notes from a suicide manual | World news | The Guardian

I read this too. Obviously the Japanese recognised that the ideal speed at which to execute a Kamikaze attack was a compromise between getting in before you were blown out of the sky and at the same time keeping the airspeed below the level at which the aircraft became uncontrollable. Vitually all reports I have read indicate that the zero, in it's various guises, became very heavy on the controls at speeds approaching 300mph and almost uncontrollable past this point. I'm sure some of the later Japanese fighters were much better in this respect, but I believe the great majority of aircraft expended in the Kamakaze role were examples of the low wing loading/light structure formula that predominated in Japanese aircraft design for most of the war; aircraft that climbed, turned and burned well (burned in both senses of the word) but didn't dive for nuts. In any case, I seriously doubt that any of these aircraft were travelling at anything like 400mph plus at the point of impact. Thank God the Japanese didn't have P-47s!

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I read this too. Obviously the Japanese recognised that the ideal speed at which to execute a Kamikaze attack was a compromise between getting in before you were blown out of the sky and at the same time keeping the airspeed below the level at which the aircraft became uncontrollable. Vitually all reports I have read indicate that the zero, in it's various guises, became very heavy on the controls at speeds approaching 300mph and almost uncontrollable past this point. I'm sure some of the later Japanese fighters were much better in this respect, but I believe the great majority of aircraft expended in the Kamakaze role were examples of the low wing loading/light structure formula that predominated in Japanese aircraft design for most of the war; aircraft that climbed, turned and burned well (burned in both senses of the word) but didn't dive for nuts. In any case, I seriously doubt that any of these aircraft were travelling at anything like 400mph plus at the point of impact. Thank God the Japanese didn't have P-47s!

LOL! That made my night!

The Zero did loose a lost of it's mystical maneuverability at higher air speeds, a known fact, but what they had to do during a Kamikaze mission IMO had little affect on this as all they had to do is fly direct into a target - be it in the vertical or horizontal. Fly the aircraft with trim and rudder and the "concrete ailerons" almost become a non-issue for a one way mission.

 

[tyrodtom]

From what i've read about the Zero it was very heavy on the ailerons at higher speeds, slow to roll, but pitch and yaw was still effective.

Also what is heavy to test pilots under test conditions is not the same as what would be heavy and unmovable to a pilot under the stress of combat with adrenaline flowing thru his bloodstream.

 

[VBF-13]

OTOH, flying more slowly, at low altitude, gives the pilot more control and better probability of hitting a radically maneuvering target, because the control corrections can be made with more time before impact.

It gives him a better probability of being hit, too. He's being shot at by everything that can shoot.

 

[CobberKane]

From what i've read about the Zero it was very heavy on the ailerons at higher speeds, slow to roll, but pitch and yaw was still effective.

Also what is heavy to test pilots under test conditions is not the same as what would be heavy and unmovable to a pilot under the stress of combat with adrenaline flowing thru his bloodstream.

So why did the Kamaikaze training manual cation against overspeeding in case the loss of control precluded hitting the target? If full speed ahead was the way to go, why caution against it?