Best Aircraft in Many Different Roles Part II

[Henk]

I know what you mean this is getting realy bad, this VS blah blah blah. There is a topic of best aircraft just go on there and make it like this one VS that one or best dive bomber and keep goin on there.

What do you mods think?

Henk

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

No there is no reason to close this thread, the idiots just need to stop disrupting it.

 

[SpitTrop]

The Mosquito series was in a differant class to anything else built in WW2, that is a simple fact.
It was a complete multi-role combat airplane that did EVERYTHING well. It could carry the same bombload as the B-17G all the way to Berlin and back, only faster and with just two crewman aboard. Its bombing was pinpoint too. Just imagine the American lives that could have been saved had this aircraft been used instead.
It was a nightfighter par excellence, a capable and fast fighter-bomber, the perfect recon plane etc. Yep, it was better than anything else fielded by any side. I'm amazed there is any dispute about that!
Someone tried to talk about the P-38 in the same sentence, wow! I know there is a lot of re-writing of WW2 history these days etc, but that's plain ridiculous!

 

[wmaxt]

The Mosquito series was in a differant class to anything else built in WW2, that is a simple fact.
It was a complete multi-role combat airplane that did EVERYTHING well. It could carry the same bombload as the B-17G all the way to Berlin and back, only faster and with just two crewman aboard. Its bombing was pinpoint too. Just imagine the American lives that could have been saved had this aircraft been used instead.
It was a nightfighter par excellence, a capable and fast fighter-bomber, the perfect recon plane etc. Yep, it was better than anything else fielded by any side. I'm amazed there is any dispute about that!
Someone tried to talk about the P-38 in the same sentence, wow! I know there is a lot of re-writing of WW2 history these days etc, but that's plain ridiculous!

Sorry, The P-38 as a fighter was to the Mosquito as a bomber and at night the Mossie had the edge with two pilots. As you haven't followed things to this point lets recap a couple of things:

Mossie MKVI (a Representative model)
Weight E - 14,300lbs, Max - 22,300lbs
Wing Span - 54' 2in
Length - 40' 10 3/4"
Max speed - 362mph (Late re-con versions 425mph)
Ceiling - 33,000ft
Range - 1,650mi With full Bomb Load
Four 20mm 4 - .303 in nose
2,000lbs bombs or 1,000lb 8 rockets

P-38J/L (2/3 of P-38 production), Info from the Pilots Operating Handbook
Weight E - 13,500lbs, Max - 21,400lbs
Wing Span - 52'
Length - 37' 10"
Max Speed - 420mph - 442mph (Test Results)
Climb - 20,000ft in 5.37min (WEP) (AAF test results), 7min @ METO
Range With full bomb load - 1,200mi
Range with 2,000lbs bombs - 1,770mi
Range max - 2,200mi, later procedures resulted in range increase to 2,600mi range

Further the P-38s were interchangeable in their rolls using only three special mods Photo, Drop Snoot (Both without nose guns), and normal fighter. The PR, and Droop Snoot could not strafe or fight but could still bomb, pathfind etc.

Each Mossie was built for its roll, the Airframe was flexible the aircraft were not. It certainly could not out bomb the B-17G over Berlin on any kind of regular basis, even if a few were specialy set up to do so.

Other than two pilots for night operations I don't see a superiority for the Mossie. The Mossie was a great Plane but to say it was better than an aircraft like the P-38 that was designed for a different purpose but happened to do some of the same things ai least as well is not realistic.

wmaxt

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The mosquito could never have replaced the B-17 or Lancaster. The Mosquito could not carry the same load as either of those the distances that they could carry them. On a raid to Berlin the Mosquito could carry a max of 4000lb bombs. It would not have had eneogh fuel to carry that same amount of bombs farther. The typical Mosquito had a range of 1800 miles without droptanks or internal auxillary tanks. I am not sure I might be wrong but in order to have the 1800 mile range it could not carry 4000lb of bombs but rather no more than 2000lb of bombs. The longest range that a Mosquito had was the PR.34 version and that had a 3500 mile range but it could not carry bombs because of the extra weight of the 1269 gallon aux fuel tank in the buldged out modified belly of the fuselage.

The B-17 had a range of 1850 miles with atypical bomb load of only about 6800lb but it could fly 1100 miles with 12000lb of bombs.

I am not saying that the Mosquito was not a good aircraft and it is a great pontential best aircraft in many performances but it can not be compared with a B-17.

And with the Lightning, there is not a single thing the Mosquito could do that the Lightning can not do.

 

[davparlr]

I have enjoyed this discussion. While I love the Mosquito, I have always wondered why it got more attention than the P-38 since it appeared the P-38 had similar capabilities. However, I do have a question. Since the P-38 carried all its stores externally, it got dirty pretty fast. Would the P-38 carry a similar amount of bombs the same distance the Mosquito could with a clean bomb storage with or without drop tanks? I would also guess cruising speed and dash speed would drop off. Somebody should know.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I have enjoyed this discussion. While I love the Mosquito, I have always wondered why it got more attention than the P-38 since it appeared the P-38 had similar capabilities. However, I do have a question. Since the P-38 carried all its stores externally, it got dirty pretty fast. Would the P-38 carry a similar amount of bombs the same distance the Mosquito could with a clean bomb storage with or without drop tanks? I would also guess cruising speed and dash speed would drop off. Somebody should know.

I am sure performance would have dropped off on the P-38. However even the Mosquito could keep its top performance when it was fully loaded. The aircraft weighted down would effect the performance as it does in all aircraft. Due to it being internal not as much as the P38 because it would not create as much drag. Basically what I am saying is though, the people that think that a Mosquito could do 400mph with 2000 to 4000lb of boms are kidding themselves.

 

[davparlr]

Nope. Bombs/fuel don't come free.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Wow I was tired when I typed that. I just saw all the typos that I made on it.

 

[cheddar cheese]

And with the Lightning, there is not a single thing the Mosquito could do that the Lightning can not do.

Yup, and any single Lightning variant can do a wider range of tasks and is more adaptable than any single Mosquito variant..

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

that's because of the British marking system, give an aircraft a new rivit (or type of glue in the mossie's case) and they give it a new mark, and there were sub-varients of the american aircraft it wasn't always as simple as A, B, C, D, E, F etc..........

 

[FLYBOYJ]

that's because of the British marking system, give an aircraft a new rivit (or type of glue in the mossie's case) and they give it a new mark, and there were sub-varients of the american aircraft it wasn't always as simple as A, B, C, D, E, F etc..........

Yep - so remember, never fly a Mk 1 or "A" of anything

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

what's wrong with the Mk.I the A varients of all the american planes sucked but british designers got it right first time most of the time

 

[FLYBOYJ]

but british designers got it right first time most of the time

MOST OF THE TIME - That's my point!!!

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

well if the Mk.I wasn't very good we vary rarely went any further with the design........

 

[Gnomey]

With reason as well normally, although many promising designs where packed in after their MK-1 (Whirlwind/DH Hornet)...

 

[wmaxt]

I have enjoyed this discussion. While I love the Mosquito, I have always wondered why it got more attention than the P-38 since it appeared the P-38 had similar capabilities. However, I do have a question. Since the P-38 carried all its stores externally, it got dirty pretty fast. Would the P-38 carry a similar amount of bombs the same distance the Mosquito could with a clean bomb storage with or without drop tanks? I would also guess cruising speed and dash speed would drop off. Somebody should know.

Dave,
The P-38 could carry 1 2,000lb bomb and i 300 gal fuel tank for almost 1,800mi. That is the bomb load of the Mossie at ~1,600mi so their capabilities were very close. If you dbl ck those stats I posted earlier you'll see the aircraft are very very close in dimensions, weight, and usefull load.

When carring 300gal drop tanks the P-38 was limited to 250mph indicated which calcs out to ~385 true. The thing with drop tanks is that if you need to it takes about 20 seconds to become clean.

I to like the Mossie. As to the P-38 and its reputation in the ETO, there is a theory going around that I think is probably true.
First it has to be understood that the P-38 arrived in the ETO cold - no support structure, bases, mechanics etc. then add new pilots often with only 20hrs in type, that had never flown above 20,000ft, with no tactics available. They flew in odds of 10 germans to 1 P-38 and the German pilots were tried and true experts that had been fighting as long as the Spanish civil war. Next the 8th AF brass had built their theory, reputations and plans on "Self Escorting Bombers" and had even sent the first P-38 squadrons to the MTO a year earlier. When the bombers losses got so high that the US public started objecting, congress started talking "Investigation", escorts started. The P-38 had done 1,000mi escorts six months earlier and were available so they were put in service, where despite the lack of support, odds, experience, etc they did the job. When the P-51 came along the support structure was in place as was tactics, training and experience. By ignoring the P-38 and its/their contabution and playing up the start-up issues they could say "See we didn't have the right plane, when we did we used it". This scenario becomes clear the more the situation is studied.

wmaxt

 

[davparlr]

wmaxt,

Very impressive discussions. You certainly know the P-38. I was always a been fan of it and thought it was underrated vs. Europe. Also, I never fully understood why the allison was so berated in the P-51/P-40/p-39 when it seem to work well in the P-38. I guess it had to do with the turbosupercharger. But then, why not use a turbo there?

Due to your information, I have a further respect of the P-38. Not quite enough to overthrow my selection of the P-51. I need to know more info on the P-38 range on internal fuel in the air-air mode as compared to the P-51D. I am sure you must have some data here.

You've been greatly informative. Keep up the good work.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Just my opinion here again but the P-38 is completly a better aircraft than the P-51D. What could the P-51D do besides escort bombers? Nothing really, but the P-38 was adapted to do such a large role of missions from fighter, escort, fighter bomber, torpedo bomber, photo recon, etc. just to name a few. It is a better overall aircraft.

 

[Henk]

Yes, I agree Erich, but in Europe the P-38 were not very good escort. The P-51 is made such great thing but it were just a fighter and a escort.

Henk