Best Bomber Killing Aircraft......

[Erich]

the 213 was worthless as it never fired in anger. 262 too fast for the committment against the rear of US heavy bombers, one shot one kill is a joke sorry, too fast to effectively set up a good rearward attack much more suited for the Fw and heavier arms packages. R4M's of the 262 was still too infantile and you could not be assured of a kill if even firing all 24 salvos in succession with your staffel Komarades.

 

[zoomar]

the 213 was worthless as it never fired in anger. 262 too fast for the committment against the rear of US heavy bombers, one shot one kill is a joke sorry, too fast to effectively set up a good rearward attack much more suited for the Fw and heavier arms packages. R4M's of the 262 was still too infantile and you could not be assured of a kill if even firing all 24 salvos in succession with your staffel Komarades.

So the Me262 was plane lacking a mission? If it wasn't an effective bomber destroyer (as you say), if it was not ideally suited to fighter vs fighter combat (which it wasn't), and was an ineffective ground attack plane, then what was it good at beside running away fast from allied fighters? Which raises the question if the Germans would have been better off putting all the R&D the spent of jets and jet engines into improved Fw-190s.

 

[Erich]

who said it wasn't an effective bomber killer ? if you believe like many that JG 7 shot down some 500 Allied craft then there is truly something wrong. there is no doubt whatsoever in my mind the 262 put fear into the US bombe rcrewmen, everyone that I have interviewed from the 1945 era hated them and were fortunate enough not having to engage them for some, it was the last dying gasp that some would say kept the Reich alive in 45. the jet was too fast to make a turn around and attack again whether US escorts were involved or not, the fuel systems were funk the engines were haphazard the loiter time was not enough except to make one violent pass, was it the wave of the future.........yes without doubt.

as to ranking # 1 and # 2 good guess all of you it would be totally up to the pilots words flying their own crates

 

[Glider]

the 213 was worthless as it never fired in anger. 262 too fast for the committment against the rear of US heavy bombers, one shot one kill is a joke sorry, too fast to effectively set up a good rearward attack much more suited for the Fw and heavier arms packages. R4M's of the 262 was still too infantile and you could not be assured of a kill if even firing all 24 salvos in succession with your staffel Komarades.

A little harsh. I think we agree about the immunity from escorting fighters. There can be no doubt that if the 262 hit a B17/B24 then the aircraft was almost certain to go down. The problem seems to be the overtaking speed which limited the chance of a hit.
From what you are saying I take it that the tactic of firing when in a climb which slows the 262 down whilst firing wasnt a success. Am I right?

 

[Erich]

harsh you say ? not really the truth though. pilots flying jets could appreciate any angle if not chased down by US P-51's which was more the case during spring of 45. the most common attack with success was flying level with the bomber formation to align sights which was miliaseconds fire a 2 second burst and speed away, hopefully the jet pilot got at least 1-2 hits on the bomber. the porpoise zoom down and climb up was early in the career of the jet unit JG 7 when they felt nothing in the US arsenal could stop them

 

[looney]

How much time did the Me 109 and FW 190 have with frontal attacks? I believe that th epilots needed to learn how to attack with the 262, they all came from the slower prop planes, mostly only fought fighters so they needed to learn how to cope with defensive fire.

 

[Erich]

5-6 seconds maximum even with setting up a frontal staffel attack a mile or more in distance, hopeful shots would get into the Bombers cockpit to take the crew out, the problem with this is the single and even twin engine LW fighters would have to go through the whole US heavy bomber formation before they could bank up or down and then the long trail forward to start the attack again if they could through the hail of .50 cals. this is why the rear attack became standard for the day JG's in July of 44.

 

[drgondog]

Maybe less time E.. The effective envelope before imminent collision for the frontal attack was perhaps 300 yards down to 100 or a 600 ft envelope at, say, a minimum closing speed of 500mph ~ 733fps.. I think the math is roughly right.

So, maybe 1.2 -1.5 seconds for Effective aimed shooting, maybe two seconds if spray and pray for the lead ship from 400-500.. then pick another target with maybe the same interval?

Closing speed from rear closer to 200mph or 293fps - but a stern attack could be 'slowed' to a much slower closing speed to present a longer interval than 2.5 second interval for 300 to 100 yard closing.

Closing speed for an Me 262 is 700-750mph which makes a head on pass extremely difficult to put a pipper and hold it and avoid a mid air collision all at the same time...
~ .6 seconds.

 

[Erich]

yes dependent on the JG staffeln on how soon they would start the attacks with their 2cm cannon many times out of range and wasting precious ammo.

you can easily see why the 262 would of been in a terrible position to attack from the front.

 

[looney]

So a rear attack from a 262 takes about as long as a frontal attack by a 190 or 109? Plus in a dogfight 1 second is condidered long if you can keep a target in your crosshairs.

Why was it so hard for the 262 pilots to make a zoom and boom pass from the rear?

 

[looney]

Ooops double post

 

[Erich]

the tactic was not hard to perform what was hard was for the pilot to be ready as he came up from slightly below to make the attack and fire. reason as I was saying that many times in 1945 the jet pilots just came in straight and slightly below to take out the tail gunner and fire into the inboard engines if time permitted, obviously the jet pilot slowed down to some degree to make an effective attack.

 

[looney]

Sounds to me basic transition problems, not?
Did they have a gyro sight on the 262, like the Ace maker? Cause it could be the gyro sight couldn't compute as fast as needed.. I can't believe pilots couldn't learn how to shoot down heavy slow bombers with a 262.

 

[smg]

i think that the me 109
thats just me

 

[skeeter]

Has anyone mentioned the P-61 Black Widow? The early variants packed at least four 20mm cannon and four 50 caliber machine guns and, coupled with radar, were devastating. If the key question is WHAT is the best aircraft employed to shoot down bombers, I would think that the P-61 would certainly finish somewhere in the top ten. Due to the design of the relatively large Black Widow, the enhanced control surfaces of the aircraft permitted the P-61 to manoeuver better than most fighter aircraft. Check me on that, but I am certain of it. I have read a quote where a pilot was asked what happened when he fired the guns at an adversary. "They shudder and go down," he replied, or words to that effect.

 

[tail end charlie]

I propose the mosquito

effective in countering the V1 ....a cruise missile bomb
used to counter FW 190 tip and run bombing missions
used to counter german night fighters of which some were converted bombers (Ju88 )
obviously never used against allied bombers but 4 cannon and 4 machine guns firing straight would shred almost anything and if it doesnt I mount a 57mm canon in my tsetse.


In BoB hurricane though the whirlwind could have been better if they sorted the engines sooner
Against bomber command me110 or Ju88 but that depended on what radar they had fitted as much as anything.
against USAAF FW 190
in the pacific i dont know what had the most bomber kills but probably the corsair fast tough and as heavily armed as most.

 

[looney]

In daylight the mossie would get torn to shreds just like any other 2 engined heavy fighter

 

[peterpro]

Yup.


Hey If I joined a forum about cars I would be the man (or boy, however you see 15 year olds) to fear

Trouble is I cant brsed to get into one cos theyre all already popular, when I joined this site it was very new and there werent that many active members. If I could come across a car site in a similar situation I would be straight in

cc it seems you haven't see me yet.I knew all the car marks and cars since i was 2 lol!

 

[FLYBOYJ]

cc it seems you haven't see me yet.I knew all the car marks and cars since i was 2 lol!

Do you realize that answered a post that is 6 years old?

 

[tail end charlie]

In daylight the mossie would get torn to shreds just like any other 2 engined heavy fighter

The question didnt mention escorts, I still think 4 cannon and 4 MGs firing withouth convergence would mincs anything.