Best Bomber of WW2 (continued)

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Basically though, Germany failed in the heavy-bomber stakes, not through any bad designs or such, they indeed had some bloody good designs - They failed directly through the dickhead in charge, Hitler, who I guess was consumed by the success of the earlier ''Blitzkreig'' strategy, not forseeing that the day would come when a Bomber Offensive combined with Air Superiority was the only way to win a war....Thank God the Allies were thinking clearly, or we would've been in trouble if some of those good designs saw fruition.....

That you are absolutely correct. They had decent designs but they did not start any soon eneogh. They needed to have a good heavy bomber in service in numbers before the war started.

 

[delcyros]

I doubt a little bit:
In general spoken, I denie that Germany (1942-1945) had the industrial capabilities to field a heavy bomber force in numbers. It would take too much fuel, training capabilities (with some bad long range fighter sweeps over Germany from late 1943 on..), ressources and precious time to do so. Remember the He-177. Just think of it as a pretty bomber (it wasn´t thanks to unreliable engines), in mid 1944 with most problems fixed, it was introduced in numbers and: It just played sitting duck for most of it´s time. There simply wasn´t enough fuel to fly multiple sorties a month and continue to train rookies for replacing the losses. A strong heavy german bomber force (containing whatever plane) would reduce the numbers of fighters further. And are there enough targets for them? What reasonable target should they bomb? Cities like London? That´s even more a worse choice..
No, I think Germany simply lacked in basics like strategy, escort fighters, fuel and useful bomber tactics for such operations.
Jet bombers on the other hand, even smaller like the Ar-234 B´s or (my favourite...) the few Ar-234 C´s would easily trace to another story.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

however jet bombers like the -234 we never gonna have much of an impact..........

 

[delcyros]

While it is true that you say that jetbombers did not have any significant impact on world war two, it is wrong that they couldn´t have made a bigger impact. Jetbombers allow new tactics, in case of the Ar-234 allowing to ignore air cover over targets and pursuing fighter to a very high degree. It has to be noted that they made really big impressions to air commanders in the closing months of ww2. Thats what we can call future. And the future belongs to jet driven planes...
(Or are you going to denie this?)
8)

 

[mosquitoman]

Yes it was the future, but the future didn't come quick enough and in enough numbers to stop the defeat of Nazi Germany

 

[tail_gunner]

Best bomber? Has anyone considered, in terms of importance to the outcome of the war, The Dauntless Dive Bomber?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I doubt a little bit:
In general spoken, I denie that Germany (1942-1945) had the industrial capabilities to field a heavy bomber force in numbers. It would take too much fuel, training capabilities (with some bad long range fighter sweeps over Germany from late 1943 on..), ressources and precious time to do so. Remember the He-177. Just think of it as a pretty bomber (it wasn´t thanks to unreliable engines), in mid 1944 with most problems fixed, it was introduced in numbers and: It just played sitting duck for most of it´s time. There simply wasn´t enough fuel to fly multiple sorties a month and continue to train rookies for replacing the losses. A strong heavy german bomber force (containing whatever plane) would reduce the numbers of fighters further. And are there enough targets for them? What reasonable target should they bomb? Cities like London? That´s even more a worse choice..
No, I think Germany simply lacked in basics like strategy, escort fighters, fuel and useful bomber tactics for such operations.
Jet bombers on the other hand, even smaller like the Ar-234 B´s or (my favourite...) the few Ar-234 C´s would easily trace to another story.

I generally agree but they had the oppurtunity before the war and that was a mistake.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

While it is true that you say that jetbombers did not have any significant impact on world war two, it is wrong that they couldn´t have made a bigger impact. Jetbombers allow new tactics, in case of the Ar-234 allowing to ignore air cover over targets and pursuing fighter to a very high degree. It has to be noted that they made really big impressions to air commanders in the closing months of ww2. Thats what we can call future. And the future belongs to jet driven planes...
(Or are you going to denie this?)
8)

you are forgetting i said jet bombers like the -234 weren't going to have an impact on the war, simply because their payload was too small, they could deliver little more than a fighter bomber and no i'm not trying to deny that jet bombers were the future...........

 

[MP-Willow]

The Dauntlass did a lot for the outcome of the war. It also did a little bit of everything and had a good carrier in the Atlantic as well.

Question on Jet bombers, the speed would be fast for good consistant bomb runs. So I think they would have to slow down into the run and would be caught by fighters or flack.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

well at this stage they weren't suited to mid/high altitude bombing because of their speed.........

 

[delcyros]

The Dauntless. Without doubt one of the greatest bomber! The problem with this poll is that anyone will define "best" either technically or historically. While I agree that the dauntless played historically an important role, it also suffered in performance figures (compared to late war designs). The best overall agreed solution might be (in my view) the B-29. It has impact as well as performance, deployment in numbers and historical importance.
The Arado jet bomber isn´t that bad. It has a light payload for the B-model (3300 lbs at 410 mp/h) and the four engined C-model could carry medium payload (overloaded) with 5500 lbs at 453 mp/h. Usual approach tactics included a swallow dive at around 500 mp/h. I estimate that the Lotfe bombsight (could) have problems with such a high airspeed, but Askania finished development of a computing bombsight for high speed purposes in february 1945. This bombsight should be used in Hs-132, too. Beside of this, the B-model could disappear at 462 mp/h and the C- model at 560 mp/h in level flight. In case of the C-model it´s even a high speed to intercept for a P-80 or Meteor MK-IV or isn´t it?
The enlarget He-343 was able to carry 6.600 lbs at decent speed (max 565 mp/h without and 488 mp/h with payload) for a decent range (1000 miles) at a decent altitude (max 50.000 ft, usual 35.000 ft), but the design was in prototype stage, only.
The largest jetbomber to fly under prototype conditions of ww2, the Ju-287 (V-1 and V-2 testbed,V-3 and following development under soviet controll) with six BMW-003 should carry 9.900 lbs bombload at 505 mp/h and 1000 miles range and (max) 35.000 ft altitude. Development included more powerful engines as well as more bombload in the Soviet Union.
I regard these designs as the "technically" best. However, they not contributed much (better anything..) to the outcome of ww2. Do you think, this should exclude them here?

 

[Gemhorse]

I've always liked the Ar-234, always thought that Hitler's preoccupation with bombers was not only back-to-front, but so was his strategies...The Ar-234 would've been interesting with heavy, forward-firing armament and RP's...But the dream of jets n' nukes n' rockets were Hitler's plan to overide the creeping destruction Allied bombing was inflicting, and otherwise powerless to strike back except for the faithful Ju-88's, 188's etc., you would think Blitzing England would've woken him then to the fact that bigger bombers were immediately necessary, especially galloping-off into Russia....Britain moved out of twins into the Stirlings first, the US already had the B-17, even Russia had a 4-engined wheel-barrow, but both Japan and Germany found it hard to get their heads around big-bombers, but both had jets.......
It's a shame the US didn't have it's first jet bomber ready in time, but being ordered on 31st March, 1944, it didn't give it much time. Although it had no defensive armament then, it had provision for an 8000 lb bombload, a max take-off weight of 40,100 lbs, a max speed of 503 mph [at sea level], service ceiling of 38,200 ft and a full-up range of 1,100 miles.....Much hope and effort had been concentrated into the B-29's development and deployment, perhaps one could say they weren't really in a rush, they had the aces ready if they needed....Big bombers were the go then, and the higher the better, and now today the B-52 capability is still valid, but Air warfare still went on to the smaller, fast jet bombers...Interesting that aircraft like Skyraiders were still needed, until the Harrier and A-10 filled that gap....By the end of WWII, the B-29 was the best and the biggest.....

I also agree about the Dauntless, as while in Europe they were flying bombers back n' forth, trading bombs, so too in the Pacific, only it was in between islands, and floating-islands; the aircraft-carriers. The Dauntless filled that vital gap, along with the Wildcat, as escort.- Yeah, it kinda takes a unique place in history really, there weren't many other types as effective during those carrier battles, Devastators maybe, but IMHO, the Dauntless had a really good shape and look to it and has always been one of my favourites, even if it wasn't all that fast, they had that rear-gunner........

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Question on Jet bombers, the speed would be fast for good consistant bomb runs. So I think they would have to slow down into the run and would be caught by fighters or flack.

The Blitz was better suited for low level tactical bombing. I personally think it would have been better used as a ground attack aircraft.

 

[delcyros]

Yes, the Arado (as the Heinkel) bomber was kind of a tactical bomber plane. The Ju-287 could be used strategicly if better engines would have been avaiable (Jumo-012 or BMW-018), but as we all know...
Real strategic jet bomber plans were just going to bgin in late 1944. Far away from beeing ready for duties. Most ambitious would have been the Ho-XVIIIb1, the only jet bomber to reach US coast, deliver it´s payload and come back to Germany. However, we can regard these planes rather science fiction than anything else in the possible timeframe.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

That is not true there were several aircraft that were desined to reach the east coast of the USA. The Ju-390 actually made a test flight and came within site of the east coast of the USA. No more then prototypes were actually built though.

 

[mosquitoman]

That's worrying, if it actually bombed New York all hell would have broken loose in America

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

It was never close eneogh to actually doing a bombing mission. The aircraft was still in prototype stage and not ready for it. The flight itself is not confirmed. Anyhow over this long of a distance and a 32 hour endurance the 390 would not have been able to carry more 3900lb of bombs which would not make for too much and only a very small nuke if they were able to get one built which would have probably only been a dirty bomb and would have done nothing more then be a terror bombing to scare the US people.

Crew 8
First Flight October 20, 1943
Entered Service 1943
Manufacturer Junkers
Dimensions
Length 34.20 m 112 ft 2 in
Wingspan 50.30 m 165 ft 1 in
Height 6.89 m 22 ft 7 in
Wing area 254 m² 2,733 ft²
Weights
Empty 39,500 kg 86,900 lb
Loaded 53,112 kg 116,846 lb
Maximum takeoff 75,500 kg 166,100 lb
Powerplant
Engines 6x BMW 801E
Power 8,818 kW 11,820 hp
Performance
Maximum speed 505 km/h 314 mph
Range 9,700 km 6,027 miles
Service ceiling 6,000 m 19,680 ft
Rate of climb
Wing loading 209 kg/m² 43 lb/ft²
Power/Mass 0.17 kW/kg 0.10 hp/lb
Avionics

Armament
Guns 2x 20 mm MG 151/20 cannons in dorsal turrets
1 x 20 mm MG 151/20 in tail
2x 13 mm MG 131 machine guns at waist
2x 13 mm MG 131 in gondola

The Junkers Ju 390 was a long-range derivative of the Junkers Ju 290 and was intended to be used as a heavy transport, maritime patrol aircraft, and bomber. It was a design selected for the abortive Amerika Bomber project.

Two prototypes were created by inserting an extra pair of inner wing segments into the wings of basic Ju 290 airframes and adding new sections to "stretch" the fuselages. The resulting giant first flew on October 20, 1943 and performed well, resulting in an order for 26 such aircraft, to be designated Ju 390A-1. None of these were actually built by the time that the project was cancelled (along with Ju 290 production) in mid 1944. The maritime patrol version and bomber were to be designated Ju 390B and Ju 390C respectively. It was suggested that the bomber could have carried the Messerschmitt Me 328 parasite fighter for self-defence. Some test flights are believed to have been performed by Ju-390 aircraft with the anti-shipping Fritz-X guided smart-bomb.

Disputed New York flight in 1944

There is a heavily disputed claim that in January 1944, a Ju-390 prototype made a trans-atlantic flight from Mont-de-Marsan (near Bordeaux) to some 20 km (12 miles) of the coast of the United States and back. Critics claim FAGr.5 (Fernaufsklarungsgruppe 5) never flew such a flight. Supporters say the only link between FAGr.5 and the New York flight is the common use of an airfield at Mont-de-Marsan and the veracity of the New York flight is neither proved nor disproved by a lack of unit records for such a flight. Indeed the flight may have had nothing whatsoever to do with FAGr.5 operations.

Whilst the Ju-390's 32-hour endurance would have certainly made such a crossing theoretically possible, there is a lack of evidence to support the claim. Aviation historian Horst Zoeller claims the flight was recorded in Junkers company records.

Critics have also pointed to the vagueness of the aircraft's alleged position and even the date of what would have been a milestone flight. The best known (and maybe earliest publication) of the claim in English was in William Green's Warplanes of the Third Reich in 1970, where he wrote that the Ju 390 flew to "a point some 12 miles from the US coast, north of New York". Critics say the vagueness of detail and lack of corroborating evidence are hallmarks of an urban legend.

Critics believe that the aircraft would have had to overfly parts of the Massachusetts coast in order to fix their location, and point out the likelihood of the aircraft being spotted by observers and/or radar, which it was not. If New York state were meant, this would have put the aircraft closer to Boston. Critics ask why this city wasn't referred to for fixing the position of the claim. Finally, it is questioned how the aircrew would have been able to fix their position so accurately anyway.

Supporters argue that a Ju-390 crew could have obtained a highly accurate fix from public broadcast radio stations. Also that a Ju-390 would not have needed to overfly Massachusetts at all. They say there was no reason why New York City could not have been approached purely from the sea.

Supporters also note that the mission was designed to deliver a single bomb to New York and that such a bomb could only have been the atomic weapon under development. Japan and Germany at the time were using the "Harteck Process" of gaseous uranium centrifuges. Germany in 1944 was shipping both uranium ores and centrifuges to Japan by U-boat.

Supporters of the New York flight say of course the mission was kept secret so as not to tip off the US Government to provide better air defences. It was an ultra top secret test flight for the delivery of an atomic bomb.

Corroboration is gleened from the so-called Silbervogel sub-orbital bomber designed to attack New York from space with only a single bomb. Only one type of bomb was worth all the time and expense involved. Supporters say a mission so secret would never have found its way into FAGr.5 logbooks.

Supporters note the top secret unit, II/KG200 also flew the Ju-390 as did Junkers company test pilots in Czechoslovakia.

Following the war, Hitler's armaments minister Albert Speer also recounted to author James P O'Donnell that a Ju-390 aircraft flown by Junkers test pilots flew a polar route to Japan in 1944.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_390

The Amerika Bomber project was an initiative of the German Air Ministry to obtain a long-range bomber aircraft for the Luftwaffe that would be capable of striking the continental United States from Germany. Requests for designs were made to the major German aircraft manufacturers early in World War II, long before the US had entered the war.

The most promising proposals were based on conventional principles of aircraft design and would have yielded aircraft very similar in configuration and capability to the Allied heavy bombers of the day. These included the Messerschmitt Me 264 (an all-new design), the Focke-Wulf Fw 300 (based on the existing Fw 200), and the Junkers Ju 390 (based on the Ju 290). Prototypes of the Me 264 were built, but it was the Ju 390 that was selected for production. Only two prototypes were constructed before the programme was abandoned, although it is widely claimed (and widely disputed) that the second prototype made a trans-Atlantic flight to within 20km (12 miles) of the US coast in early 1944.

Other proposals were far more exotic jet- and rocket-powered designs. Perhaps the best-known of these today is Eugen Sänger's Silbervogel ("Silverbird") sub-orbital bomber. Slightly more conventional, the Horten brothers designed the Horton Ho XVIII, a flying wing powered by six turbojets based on experiences with their existing Ho X design. The Arado company also suggested a six-jet flying wing design, the Arado E.555. All of these projects were deemed too expensive and ambitious and were abandoned, although the British Air Ministry considered development of the Ho XVIII for an airliner after the war, and the theoretical groundwork done on the Silbervogel would prove seminal to lifting body designs of the space age.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerika_Bomber

KG200

KG 200 (Kampfgeschwader 200 or Bomber Wing 200) was a secret Luftwaffe bomber unit during World War II. The unit was the Luftwaffe's special operations wing that carried out long-distance reconnaissance flights, tested new aircraft designs and tested and flew special missions with captured aircraft.

History
The unit's history began in 1934, when the Luftwaffe, impressed with Colonel Theodor Rowehl's aerial reconnaissance missions over Poland, formed a special squadron under Rowehl's lead that was attached to the Abwehr, Germany's military intelligence department. As the Abwehr started to lose the Führer's good will during the war, a new reconnaissance unit, the 2nd Test Formation, was formed in 1942 under the command of Werner Baumbach. This unit was united with 1st Test Formation in March 1944 to form KG 200. From then on, all aerial special-ops missions were carried out by KG 200 under Baumbach's command.

[edit]
Organisation
KG 200 consisted of 2 operational squadrons; several other squadrons were planned but did not become operational before the end of the war. The squadrons operated in complete secrecy from several bases spread out over all of Europe; individual squadron members and their airbases' ground crews knew little if anything at all about the extent of KG 200's organisation.

1st squadron was responsible for delivering secret agents and spies to their destinations behind enemy lines. It operated under direct command of the Sicherheitsdienst.
2nd squadron was in charge of all other missions, including long-range reconnaissance, delivery flights to Japan and special bombing missions.
3rd squadron was to use Focke-Wulf Fw 190 fighters armed with torpedoes for coastal defense.
4th squadron was used for pilot training; it was also intended to carry out suicide missions.
5th squadron was planned as a long-range unit using Junkers Ju 90 and Ju290 planes. Had it become operational, this squadron would have been responsible for reconnaisance flights and delivery of agents to the United States.
[edit]
Missions
The unit carried out a wide variety of missions:

[edit]
Long-range reconnaissance
Before the beginning of the war, aerial reconnaisance was usually carried out by relatively unconspicious civilian Lufthansa planes equipped with cameras. This practice was continued throughout the war as long as civilian airlines remained operational; later on, recon missions were most often carried out by Junkers Ju 90s flying at very high altitudes or by flying boats. Due to the lack of German aircraft with sufficient range, some recon missions even used captured American B-17 and B-24 bombers.

[edit]
The Mistel program
Beginning in 1942, to compensate for its lack of heavy bombers, the Luftwaffe started to experiment with packing some of its war-weary Junkers Ju 88 bombers with explosives and guiding them to their targets with a fighter airplane mounted on the back of the unmanned bomber. Although not as effective as the Luftwaffe planners had hoped, the Mistel program was continued until the end of the war. From March 1944, all Mistel missions were carried out by pilots of KG 200.

[edit]
Suicide missions
In the last months of the war, a small number of high-ranking German officers pressed for a suicide fighter program as a last-ditch effort to stop Allied bombing runs over the Reich. This program, known as Selbstopfer ("self sacrifice"), was intended to use piloted V1 rockets to attack enemy bombers and ground targets. Several test flights were carried out by KG 200, and mass production of the converted rockets had begun, but the program was stopped due to intervention from Baumbach who felt that these missions would be a waste of valuable pilots.

[edit]
Special missions
The unit also carried out a variety of special missions, like parachuting spies behind enemy lines, operating radar-jamming aircraft, carrying out long-range transport flights to Japan, clandestine bombing missions and infiltrating American bomber formations with captured aircraft in an attempt to spread confusion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KG_200

 

[trackend]

That's worrying, if it actually bombed New York all hell would have broken loose in America

I think it would have had terrific psychological effect as you say Mossie same as the Darwin or Dolittle raid

 

[mosquitoman]

Yes, the removal of fighter squadrons from the Western Front might have given the Luftwaffe a slight advantage. If it had a dirty bomb, the whole of New York would have become uninhabitable aswell.
But this is all one BIG "IF"

 

[delcyros]

I originally had jet driven planes in mind, Adler. But your Ju-390 info is highly interesting. KG 200 carried out some very interesting missions, too, but little is known about it in general.
Such a strategic bomber only makes sense in case a nuke would have been ready (same goes for the rocketry).