Best Fighter in Service Before 1 September 1939

[Elvis]

Vanir,

Who's wrong?
Even, "feathered", is a position.
We just have to come to some kind of agreement as to whether its a two position or a three position prop.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shortround6,

True, but on 9/1/39, a Spitfire pilot could be flying with a 2 bladed fixed prop or a 3 bladed vari-pitch prop, but we now know they wouldn't be flying with a constant speed prop, so that one's out.
Still, as you say, they're ALL Mk.I's.

SO, going on the assumption that the vari-pitch prop is going to give the most superior performance, would you guys rather fly that plane, or the Me-109E?


Elvis

 

[vanir]

I'm going to be controversial again, this is anecdotal from Rall, who clearly states the service ceiling of the Emil was about a thousand metres higher than the Spit during BoB. When I talk about service ceiling of course I'm talking about that height at which climb rate begins to drop dramatically, which is often roughly about 1500m or so above the full throttle height for most a/c it seems, modified by conditions such as ram air intake. The service ceiling is quite a bit lower than the absolute (maximum) ceiling in most cases.
Typical prewar (fixed pitch) not much higher than 3500m (for example a Hurricane with a Watts didn't perform well above this height). For variable pitch like the Jumo 210 equipped 109 it might be 4500m which is a good height. Many other prewar fighters performed well up to about 4000m whilst bombers cruising at 4500-5000m were considered to be at high altitude. The absolute ceilings of these aircraft would be more like 8500m for fighters and 7500m for bombers so their actual performance by altitude isn't well represented by this (it usually takes a lot of fuel and patience to reach absolute ceiling), but indeed a formation of interceptors will already be cruising at a good altitude so would always be diving on attack anyway, regardless that this would be well above their best performance altitude.

For the BoB Spit according to Rall, it didn't climb well above 6000m where the Emil was strong to 7000m and for this specific reason, frei jäger roamed at this altitude for its notable advantages over the Spit during initial engagement. He notes of course they could not do this when tied by close escort doctrine, and this took away one of the main advantages of the Emil, so pilots didn't like those sorties much and preferred to roam free.
In a level flight engagement in the Spit's altitude region I'd say the tables are a little turned, the Emil had some advantages but required a successful tactical approach to make use of them.

Nevertheless add to the fact the aeromechanical screw cuts about 50% pilot workload in any transitional manoeuvring, increasing situational awareness, it trumps even the Rotol and the variable position type doesn't have the performance flexibility for maintaining maximum thrust delivery through varied conditions.

I like the Spit, but I'd be in an Emil.

 

[Vincenzo]

After my post number 71st on weapon this is on speed
i put a list of fastest fighters, at time, i put fighter from around 450 km/h and over. the 400/450 km/h fighters was not slow for the time, there are many under 300 km/h fighters in the late '30, but i don't count it for a fastest work and for this reason: this speed are can also with biplanes.
The rated altitude are from 3 to 6 km

Around 450 km/h
Seversky P-35
Polikarpov I-16 not guns variant
Hawk 75 with fixed carriage

450/500 km/h
Fokker D.XXI
Nakajima Ki-27
Fiat G.50
Morane Saulnier M.S.406
Messerschmitt Bf 109 Jumo engined
Curtiss Hawk 75A P-36
Fokker G.I
Potez 631
Messerschmitt Bf 110 B

Over 500 km/h
Heinkel He 112 B
Hawker Hurricane I

Around and over 550 km/h
Messerschmitt Bf 109 E
Supermarine Spitfire I
Messerschmitt Bf 110 C

 

[Civettone]

Can we also include the He 100D ?


Kris

 

[Vincenzo]

Can we also include the He 100D ?


Kris

afaik He 100 was not a before of war fighter, but if you have different history...

 

[Clay_Allison]

afaik He 100 was not a before of war fighter, but if you have different history...

maybe he means He-112, the fighter the 109 beat in the fighter competition.

 

[Vincenzo]

maybe he means He-112, the fighter the 109 beat in the fighter competition.

The 112 B is in list

 

[Civettone]

Weren't the first He 100D-0's delivered before September 1939 ??



Kris

 

[Vincenzo]

afaik all were delivered after the start of war, also there are not order for He 100, also if built no air force for delivered

 

[Condora]

Built and flying before the war, but never entered service in the Luftwaffe.
The Luftwaffe used it's pictures to "intoxicate" the allies that they had a new aircraft.

Of the two dozen built, some were sold to URSS and Japan, and are supposed to have influenced the development of the LaGG-3, MiG-1, and Ki-61.

 

[Elvis]

I can see it, however, from this view...

...it almost appears to be loosely based on the Stuka dive bomber, only "slicker" and (obviously) higher performing.


Elvis

 

[Vincenzo]

After some research the 3 D-0 were built before of war, imho they are not actual fighter, a fighter need a air force that operate its

 

[Clay_Allison]

The thread title does say best IN SERVICE before 9/01/39, not best invented.

 

[vanir]

Weren't the first BF-110C delivered in Nov39, first used in combat at Heliogoland in Dec against Wellingtons.
AFAIK the 32 BF-110 on strength with LG(Z)1 and ZG1 up to this time were the development models with Jumo engines in service testing (110B).

Also Polikarpov I-16 is 460km/h in 1936 with M-25 (type 5 iirc), in 1939 with M-62R top speed is 525km/h (type 18 I think) or with M-63 and cannon (type 24) 500km/h.

And isn't Hurricane more like 550km/h with Rotol. 510km/h was for Watts I believe tested 1938 during a speed run with the two blade prop (it broke a record).

Also I think the Boulton Paul Defiant was delivered before Sep39, top speed 505km/h.


c'mon say it, we'd all rather be in the Boulton Paul Defiant against any other a/c in 1939 right? Right?

 

[Condora]

c'mon say it, we'd all rather be in the Boulton Paul Defiant against any other a/c in 1939 right? Right?

Fast enough to fly away, with rear-facing weapons to discourage any pursuer?
Mmmm... Is the rear gunner Dr. Jones Sr.?

 

[Vincenzo]

Weren't the first BF-110C delivered in Nov39, first used in combat at Heliogoland in Dec against Wellingtons.
AFAIK the 32 BF-110 on strength with LG(Z)1 and ZG1 up to this time were the development models with Jumo engines in service testing (110B).

Also Polikarpov I-16 is 460km/h in 1936 with M-25 (type 5 iirc), in 1939 with M-62R top speed is 525km/h (type 18 I think) or with M-63 and cannon (type 24) 500km/h.

And isn't Hurricane more like 550km/h with Rotol. 510km/h was for Watts I believe tested 1938 during a speed run with the two blade prop (it broke a record).

Also I think the Boulton Paul Defiant was delivered before Sep39, top speed 505km/h.


c'mon say it, we'd all rather be in the Boulton Paul Defiant against any other a/c in 1939 right? Right?

I read somewhere there are in squadrons 95 Bf 110 at start of war (27 B and 68 C) if need i look the web page where i read it.

see for russian fighters I-15 and I-16 fighters it's for a game but data from good russian book (i see same other page more hard to find)

for hurricane there are only watts prop at time, and for true rotol prop non up the max speed see Willaims site

the 264th squadron (the first with defiant) was formed the 30 october...

 

[Condora]

I read somewhere there are in squadrons 95 Bf 110 at start of war (27 B and 68 C) if need i look the web page where i read it.

The DB 601 were available for the Bf110 in 1938. They had almost a year's production when the war started.

 

[Altea]

see for russian fighters I-15 and I-16 fighters it's for a game but data from good russian book (i see same other page more hard to find)

...

Your link seems to be not very reliable, or a little outdated.

The I-16 tip 6 never existed.

The best I 16 tip 5 was the serial number 521560. It reached 429 km/h at SL and 475 at 3000m with a simple M25A.

The experimental I-16 tip 24 reached 489 km/h at 4780m.

Serial planes were usualy slower. 440-457km/h for the tip 5

460-490 km/h for the tip 24 to 29. There were huge disparities from a serial soviet plane to another.

Anyway, on september the 1st, only a few I-16 tip 18 were in service ( I-16 with the M-62 engine)


Regards.

 

[Vincenzo]

can i ask your source?

 

[Altea]

can i ask your source?

Of course

Istrebitel' I-16 - Mikhail Maslov - Exprint
I-5, I-15, I-15bis- Polygon 1
Encyclopédie illustrée de l'aviation - Editions Atlas
Soviet air force fighters -W Green, G swanborough- Putnam and Jane's
Poslednye istrebiteli Polikarpova I-18a, I-185 – Yoori Googlya - Arkhivpress Kiev
Istrebitel' I-16 - Mikhail Maslov – Armada
Les avions de chasse Polikarpov – Herbert Leonard – ouest france
Polikarpov Fighters in action part II, - squadron signal 162
L'aviation de chasse républicaine espagnole – Juan Arraez Cerda- -Avions HS 3
Les faucons de Staline -Kosminkov-Hazanov- Hors série Fanatique de l'aviation
V nebe Ispanii 1936-1939ie gody - S Abrosov – Moskva 2003
Le Polikarpov I-16 – Christophe Cony – Avions
Polikarpov I-16 fighter Its foreruners and progeny -Red star 3 -Yefim Gordon and K dexter;- Midland Publishing
POLIKARPOV I-16 -P. Laurreau, J. Arraez Cerda, S. Soulard, G. Duranthie-Éditions J. Kytka-English version translated by Brinsley Best...
....

And classics...
Samoletostroenie part 1
Shavrov Part1 История конструкций самолетов в СССР до 1938...
... i probably miss some of them. But never forget to be aware browsing some russian forums as airforce.ru, Sukhoi.ru,13th airbase Glasnet .ru, airpages ru where you can find a lot of great specialists of the question...

Regards

Altea