Best ISA's?

[schwarzpanzer]

Glider wrote:

I don't like the Thompson as it had a problem with the mussle rising and the mag was on the small side.

Soren replied:

Well I did say "Tommygun", which refers to the model some British and Australian units carried, and 'It' featured a 50-100 round drum aswell as a muzzle gas regulator.

Yep, also had the Cutts Compensator and is pretty accurate - some SWAT were using them in the '80's!!

The term "Tommy gun" refers to Thompson sub-machine guns of all models

It is also called "The Chicago Typewriter" among others.

be they .45 calibre or 9mm.

Some Tommy's (civilian) were in rifle calibre, though I didn't know about 9mm, you don't mean the M3A1 do you NS?

- I'm not patronising BTW.

They were used by some Canadian units too.

And Germans! - there's footage (in Crete IIRC?) of Fallschirmjager using Tommy's Brens.

Mostly the M1928 model I believe.

Yep!

According to what I've heard the 30 round drum was the normal pick, however this will obviously vary from man to man.

The M1928A1 could not take the 30 round box, the M1A1 could take the older 20 round box, but not the drums.

The K98 wasn't more accurate than the sniper versions of the Lee Enfield 4

It is in a wind tunnel, also the muzzle 'climbs' a lot less.

I'd have the No4 though. 8)

Sorren The British started with the drum mag's for the Thompson as we wanted maximum firepower for the squad. Howeve they were soon dropped as the rounds rattled around inside the drum and you could be heard from some distance.

Yes but they were back in use for D-Day.

 

[Soren]

The K98 wasn't more accurate than the sniper versions of the Lee Enfield 4,

The hand picked Karabiner 98 sniper-rifle with the 6X ZF scope is more accurate than the hand-picked Lee Enfield Mk.4 sniper-rifle, yes. The German snipers also had the advantage of being able to fire high powered specialized ammunition from their rifles, the British snipers did not.

and its a popular misconception that the weight of the bullet and mv is top priority in accuracy.

Those are two of the most important factors.

There are a number of other factors of equal importance.

Yes, and the K98 holds all the advantages there as-well. (Ballisticly at-least)

The 7.92mm projectile for one is ballisticly a superior projectile than the 7.7mm projectile.

The Lee Enfield stayed in service until the 1980's as the British snipers rifle and in civilian long range shooting competitions only started to be replaced in the 90's with free floating designs.

Yes, but the K98 is still in service today

The Isreali's still use the K98 as a sniper rifle and with great succes.

Also if Germany hadn't lost the war, you can be sure the K98 would have been used much more extensively during the pre-war years than it already has been, and that means a whole lot more than the Enfield.

The K98 simply has had much bigger impact on modern bolt action rifles than the Enfield has.

Amongst collectors the Mk 4 sniper is seen as a classic design and good examples cost a serious amount of money.

Sure you can find some expensive Enfield's out there, but none as expensive as a SS stamped K98 sniper rifle, as they are simply alot more worth.

As recently as 2000 there was a shooting competition at Bisley on the long ranges out to 1.200 yards. Militery teams from the NATO armies took part as did a team of civilians using the Lee Enfield. The civilain team came fifth out of I think it was nine teams. The accuracy of the Lee Enfield is in no doubt.

The accuracy of the Enfield is great, no doubt about it, but the K98's is better, might not be much but its better. And its no surprise, cause the K98's ammunition is more accurate as-well.

Its all about picking the right ammunition, as there's a heck of alot of crappy underpowered commercial 8mm ammunition out there.

 

[Soren]

The M1928A1 could not take the 30 round box,

No, the M1928A-1 could take both the 20 and 30 round mag, as-well as the 50-100 round drums.

the M1A1 could take the older 20 round box, but not the drums.

Yes, as-well as the 30 round mag.

 

[Nonskimmer]

Some Tommy's (civilian) were in rifle calibre, though I didn't know about 9mm, you don't mean the M3A1 do you NS?

- I'm not patronising BTW.

No, I mean Tommy Guns. Some FBI and law enforcement examples were calibred in 9mm, but I can't track down the exact designation. They may have been converted M1921's. Not sure, but it seems likely. I'm not talking about the recently produced long barreled semi-automatic reproductions by Colt either.

Which ones were in rifle calibre, and who used them? Only civilians? I'm just curious. I can't find any info on them.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

That's weird, I thought you'd have the G3A3 or the G36 DerAdler?

I've heard baad things about the M60 (for infantry use), the MG3 is a lot better apparently. 8)

I suppose the M60 is like the MG34 then, fine in a vehicle?

You should like the 240G, the SAS seem to love it!

The M60 makes a great noise though! 8)

Im in the US Army not in the German Army. The US Army does not used the G-36 or the G3A3.

The problem with the M-60 for infantry use is that it is heavy and that is why it was replaced by the SAW for them. However as a door gun for my Blackhawk it is perfect and works great. It does not have a regular sight but rather a circular sight used for supression from the helicoper and therefore it does not have to be dead accurate. Just get there heads down and suprress them so the ground pounders can get out.

 

[schwarzpanzer]

Quote:
and its a popular misconception that the weight of the bullet and mv is top priority in accuracy.

Those are two of the most important factors.

Within reason, the most important factor is the sniper himself, reliability of the weapon is also an issue though the quality (within reason) isn't.

A Mosin-Nagant or Springfield is as good as a Kar98K for a sniper.

The best IMHO is the Boys-type snipers. 8)

Yes, but the K98 is still in service today

So is the Enfield, I think? (Pakistan)

The K98 simply has had much bigger impact on modern bolt action rifles than the Enfield has.

Maybe? - but now all sniper rifles hold 10 rounds etc...

Sure you can find some expensive Enfield's out there, but none as expensive as a SS stamped K98 sniper rifle, as they are simply alot more worth.

That's just the rarity value?

No, the M1928A-1 could take both the 20 and 30 round mag, as-well as the 50-100 round drums.

You might be right there.

the M1A1 could take the older 20 round box, but not the drums.

Yes, as-well as the 30 round mag.

Correct.

Some FBI and law enforcement examples were calibred in 9mm, but I can't track down the exact designation.

Cheers , the SWAT ones may have been 9mm...

I'm not talking about the recently produced long barreled semi-automatic reproductions by Colt either.

I might get one of those one day 8) ...WW2 barrel length, semi-auto though.

Which ones were in rifle calibre, and who used them? Only civilians? I'm just curious. I can't find any info on them.

Not sure of the exact details, but I'm pretty sure they were all civilian (or crim!)

BSA (of the UK) also built a load pre-WW2, I think some were sold on the civvy market in rifle-calibre too, not sure though.

I can get a books details with some info on it? - no more than I've given though, sorry.

Im in the US Army not in the German Army.

The US Army does not use the G-36

Funny you should mention that, the UK and US are considering replacing the SA80 and M16 for G36's!

-please, please, please, pleease?

The problem with the M-60 for infantry use is that it is heavy

Yeah, 'the pig'

What I know about the M60 is that it has a slow RoF, is unreliable and
- this is scary, keeps firing for a while after you let go of the trigger!

You can also easily burn your hands on the barrel too, the Bren was good there. Headspace adjustment is either easy or difficult? - I forget.

Theres a few other negatives too I think...

I don't think they matter for vehicle use though?

Hey, d'ya think you can ask for a M134 Minigun?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The US will not replace the M-16/M-4 with the G36. They have already found there replacement for it and it is the XM-8 Rifle. It has already been tested and is on its way to approval.

The XM8 Future Combat Rifle is intended to replace existing M4 Carbines and select 5.56mm x45 weapons in the US Army arsenal beginning as early as the fourth quarter of FY05.

In October 2002 ATK (Alliant Techsystems) was awarded a $5 million contract modification from the U.S. Army Armament Research, Development, and Engineering Center (ARDEC), Picatinny, N.J., to develop the new XM8 Lightweight Assault Rifle. ATK Integrated Defense, Plymouth, Minn., and teammate Heckler and Koch, Oberndorf, Germany, will support the rapid development program, which will investigate the potential of the XM8 as the lightweight assault rifle for the Army's Objective Force.

The XM8 will be based on the kinetic energy weapon that is part of the XM29 next-generation infantry weapon system (formerly the Objective Individual Combat Weapon) currently under development by ATK Integrated Defense. The kinetic energy weapon, which fires 5.56mm ammunition, will provide maximum commonality in components and logistics with the XM29 system.

The XM8 will provide lethality performance comparable to the currently fielded M4 carbine rifle, while weighing 20 percent less than the M4 because of advanced technologies developed for the XM29 program.

The XM8 Lightweight Assault Rifle will reduce the 21st century soldier's load and increase his mobility - two very important aims of the Army's Objective Force Warrior and Land Warrior initiatives. The progress made to reduce weight and improve performance on the XM29 program is key to the decision on accelerating the development of the XM8, which is integrated with the Army's efforts to transform to a more lethal and rapidly deployed fighting force as part of its Objective Force.

ATK Integrated Defense is the system integrator on the XM29 program. Teammates on the program are Heckler and Koch, weapon development; ATK Ammunition Systems, Arden Hills, Minn., ammunition development; Brashear LP, Pittsburgh, Pa., integrated full solution fire control; and Omega, Columbus, Ga., training systems.

The XM8 is a true family of weapons with different barrel lengths designed to address all the needs of an infantry squad. The standard model is expected to be lighter than the M4 carbine and no larger in size. There's also a sharpshooter version for increased range; a compact version for cramped quarters; and an auto-rifle version for a squad-automatic weapon. The XM8 family has a 9-inch compact, 12.5-inch carbine and a 20-inch sharpshooter and automatic rifle. The 12.5-inch carbine is 6.4 pounds with an objective of 5.7 pounds and is 33 inches with its adjustable stock extended. The M-16 A2 is 39.63 inches long and 8.79 pounds with a 30-round magazine.

Internally, the XM8 uses a rotary locking bolt system that functions and fieldstrips like those used in the M-16 rifle and M-4 carbine, according to the XM8 manufacturer's - Heckler Koch - Website. The bolt is powered by a unique gas operating system with a user-removable gas piston and pusher rod to operate the mechanism. Unlike the current M-4 and M-16 direct gas system with gas tube, the XM8 gas system does not introduce propellant gases and carbon back into the weapon's receiver during firing.

While the XM8 was not exposed to battlefield conditions, it's still a feat the current service rifle hasn't come close to rivaling, said Rich Audette, deputy project manager for PM Soldier Weapons. During their Oct. 20-23 2003 trip to Germany, the weapons experts said they were impressed after watching Heckler Koch engineers fire four high-capacity magazines, with 100 rounds a piece, in less than five minutes.

This improved reliability can be credited to differences in the XM8's operating system from the one in the M16. For instance, a thin gas tube runs almost the entire length of the barrel in all of the M16 variants. When the weapon is fired, the gases travel back down the tube into the chamber and push the bolt back to eject the shell casing and chamber a new round. The XM8's gas system instead is connected to a mechanical operating rod, which pushes back the bolt to eject the casing and chamber the new round each time the weapon is fired. So there's no carbon residue constantly being blown back into the chamber, reducing the need to clean the weapon as often. You don't get gases blowing back into the chamber that have contaminates in them. The XM8 also has a much tighter seal between the bolt and the ejection port, which should cut down on the amount of debris that can blow into the weapon when the ejection port's dust cover is open.

The XM8 is part of the Army's effort to perfect an over-and-under style weapon, known as the XM29, developed by Alliant Techsystems and H&K. It fires special air-bursting projectiles and standard 5.56mm ammunition. But the XM29 still is too heavy and unwieldy for Army requirements. Instead of scrapping the XM29, the Army decided to perfect each of XM29's components separately, so soldiers can take advantage of new technology sooner. The parts would be brought back together when lighter materials become available. The XM8 is one of those components.

From December 2003 through late May 2004, soldiers got a chance to fire the prototypes in desert, tropical and arctic environments. A limited-user test then was conducted, possibly at Fort Campbell, Ky., where soldiers test the prototypes for about three weeks while training in offensive and defensive scenarios. Improvements will be made based on soldier and test feedback before the final three-months of operational tests, which are scheduled to begin in fall 2004. The final decision will be up to the Army's senior leadership, but weapons officials said they were confident the XM8 weapon system will be adopted. If all goes well, the XM8 could be ready for fielding by late summer 2005.

Beginning life as the 5.56mm KE (kinetic energy) component of the 20mm air-bursting XM29 Objective Individual Combat Weapon (OICW), the XM8 Lightweight Modular Carbine System represents the state-of-the-art in 5.56x45mm NATO assault rifles. Developed by the US Army's office of Project Manager for Soldier Weapons located at Picatinny Arsenal, New Jersey in close conjunction with the US Army Infantry Center, the XM8 Future Combat Rifle is intended to replace existing M4 Carbines and select 5.56mm x45 weapons in the US Army arsenal beginning as early as the fourth quarter of FY05. Once adopted, the M8 Carbine will replace the aging M16/M4 family of weapons, which have been in service for nearly four decades, longer than any previous US service rifle. The M8 Carbine will be up to 20% lighter than a comparably equipped M4 Carbine MWS and yet offer additional features and performance unavailable currently in any assault rifle in the world.

As a direct development of the separable OICW (XM29) KE or Kinetic Energy module, the M8 Carbine will share a high degree of common parts and training and maintenance procedures to lessen the required support for the "family" of XM8 weapons. Being developed are four XM8 variants, which include a baseline carbine, a sharpshooter variant, an automatic rifle variant, and the ultra-compact carbine variant. A unique feature of the XM8 modular weapon system is the ability to easily and quickly reconfigure the weapon from one variant to the other to meet changing mission requirements, to include caliber conversion.

This modularity includes the exchange of interchangeable assembly groups such as the barrel, handguard, lower receiver, buttstock modules and sighting system with removable carrying handle. In addition and in parallel, the new XM320 quick detachable single-shot 40mm grenade launcher with side-opening breech and LSS lightweight 12 gauge shotgun module can be easily added to the XM8 by the user in the field without tools. The unique buttstock system allows the operator exchange buttstocks without tools from the standard collapsible multi-position version, to an optional buttcap for maximum portability or an optional folding or sniper buttstock with adjustable cheekpiece for special applications. Internally the XM8 employs a combat-proven robust rotary locking bolt system that functions and fieldstrips like that used in the current M16 rifle and M4 carbine. However this bolt is powered by a unique gas operating system that employs a user removable gas piston and pusher rod to operate the mechanism. Unlike the current M4/M16 direct gas system with gas tube, the XM8 gas system does not introduce propellant gases and the associated carbon fouling back into the weapon's receiver during firing. This greatly increases the reliability of the XM8 while at same time reducing operator cleaning time by as much as 70%. This system also allows the weapon to fire more than 15,000 rounds without lubrication or cleaning in even the worst operational environments. A cold hammer forged barrel will guarantee a minimum of 20,000 rounds service life and ultimate operator safety in the event of an obstructed bore occurrence.

The XM8 has fully ambidextrous operating controls to include a centrally located charging handle that doubles as an ambidextrous forward assist when required, ambidextrous magazine release, bolt catch, safety/selector lever with semi and full automatic modes of fire and release lever for the multiple position collapsible buttstock. The operating controls allow the operator to keep the firing hand on the pistol grip and the weapon in the firing position at all times while the non-firing hand actuates the charging handle and magazine during loading and clearing. Major components of the weapon are produced from high-strength fiber reinforced polymer materials that can be molded in almost any color to include OD green, desert tan, arctic white, urban blue, brown and basic black. Surfaces on the XM8 that interface with the operator are fitted with non-slip materials to increase comfort and operator retention. The XM8 uses 10 or 30-round semi-transparent box magazines and high-reliability 100-round drum magazines for sustained fire applications.

Special integral flush mounted attachment points are located on the handguard and receiver to allow the quick attachment of targeting devices. Unlike MIL-STD-1913 rails, the XM8 attachment points do not add additional weight, bulk and cost to the host weapon, and will accept MIL-STD-1913 adapters to allow for the use of current in-service accessories. The attachment points for the standard multi-function integrated red-dot sight allow multiple mounting positions and insure 100% zero retention even after the sight is removed and remounted. The battery powered XM8 sight includes the latest technology in a red dot close combat optic, IR laser aimer and laser illuminator with back-up etched reticle with capability exceeding that of the current M68-CCO, AN/PEQ-2 and AN/PAQ-4. This sight will be factory zeroed on the weapon when it is delivered and does not require constant rezeroing in the field like current rail-mounted targeting devices. The XM8 will be fully compatible with future Land Warrior technology and components.

The US XM8 Carbine is being designed at the HK Defense design center in Sterling, Virginia and will be produced and assembled in the United States at the new Heckler Koch manufacturing plant located in Columbus, Georgia, adjacent to Fort Benning. The unit cost of the XM8 will be less than that of the current M4 Carbine and will guarantee the American war fighter uncompromising performance far exceeding that of current in-service M4 Carbines.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m8-oicw.htm

 

[Glider]

Impressive. maybe we should hang on to the SA80 while the inevitable bugs are wrung out of the initial version. I like the rod replacement for the gas and that its for both left and right handed people.

 

[Nonskimmer]

I thought the MoD had already planned to start replacing the SA80 with the G36 in the British forces by next year. I have absolutely no experience with either rifle, but some old British mates of mine didn't have very kind things to say about the SA80. Mind you, they both left the British Army about twelve years ago, so they wouldn't have had experience with any improvements that may have been made to it since then.

 

[Glider]

I have two cousins in the Army and they like the latest version of the SA80. I have also heard that the Army are planning to purchase the G36, but there is a huge difference between Planning and Purchasing with the current goverment.
However now that the SA80 seems to be as good as most I was thinking that we may as well hang onto them and look at the XM8.

 

[schwarzpanzer]

The XM-8 (will be known as M8 in US service) is based on the G36 (which is based on the M16).

Another one of those NIH things?

I'd have the G36 IMHO (for the folding stock)


The SA80? Silks purse, sow's ear IMHO.

Even the INSAS is better!

I'd say the SA80 is the MG/Rover of the AR world!


The Steyr AUG has to be the best 5.56mm? - pity it can't take STANAG mags, or can it?


The EM2 was tested in Russia and found to be better than the AKM and FN FAL/SLR. 8)

It's a pity the USA pushed it's 7.62mm so hard , the 7.7mm was better IMO.

Politics never gets in the way of Russian designs:

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as34-e.htm

- Replacement for the AK?

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as08-e.htm

- Best AR in the world? More-than-Western thinking in a Russian design!

I'd like to see these in bullpup config.

One rare good thing about the SA80 is it's FG42-alike mechanism, but IMHO it is much better to have 2 choices?


A point is that composites are great for lightweight ammo, it's about time someone realised that!

However, when is Hydroform steel going to be used for bodies?

- come on weapon designers!

 

[Glider]

Well we will have to agree to disagree over the latest version of the SA80. I would point out that I am close to my two cousins and they know what works and what doesn't.
One of them got into trouble in the first Gulf War for 'aquiring' M16's for his unit because of the unreliability of the earlier SA80's. In the second Gulf War he was more than happy with the current version, which he finds accurate and reliable.
You will of course hear different things from different people but that is the only first hand experience that I have.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The XM-8 is based off a HK design. I believe it is made by them too.

 

[Soren]

Within reason, the most important factor is the sniper himself, reliability of the weapon is also an issue though the quality (within reason) isn't.

When you trying to hit a mans head over 600 yards away it is ! And the K98k sniper-rifle is by far the better at that.

A Mosin-Nagant or Springfield is as good as a Kar98K for a sniper

For Urban fighting, maybe, but for long range fighting the K98k outshoots them both.

So is the Enfield, I think? (Pakistan)

Pakistan forces field the K98k as-well.

Maybe? - but now all sniper rifles hold 10 rounds etc...

No, most bolt-action sniper-rifle's still holds 5 rounds. The M40 for example.

That's just the rarity value?

And the quality value, as-well as the historical value etc etc..

 

[plan_D]

The XM-8 is the U.S H&K version of the H&K G-36 - there's different design teams but it's the same company. The U.K government has been set to replace the SA80 with the G-36 for a long time the date was set for next year but as Glider says, what is planned and what is purchased is something completely different.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

It will be interesting to see what comes out of it.