German commando attack on the US, Canada Alaska

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Anyway I'd like to file a complaint for the 3 points infraction I just recieved by you Adler as it is based on wrong assumptions.

Complaint noted...

Whats your point. Do you think I am going to remove it? I don't think you were kidding Soren, and right now I am not either...

If you wish to continue this, we can do so in a PM. This thread has been derailed eneogh. Of course I wont read it until tomorrow, because I am going to bed right about now.

 

[Freebird]

Agreed and there are much better targets in those areas. That is why I don't understand this facination with Alaska...

Soren loves the place Adler!!!!

{Perhaps you two will be neighbors....}

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Soren loves the place Adler!!!!

{Perhaps you two will be neighbors....}

I might just mistake him for an Elk...8)

 

[Juha]

Quote: "Btw, looked at Uboat.net and sure enough both U-302 (Typo in book apparently) 354 went straight into the Vilkitsky strait!"

Yes, and have you strenght to admit that the sinkings were marked well W of the strait in that site?


Juha

 

[Soren]

Quote: "Btw, looked at Uboat.net and sure enough both U-302 (Typo in book apparently) 354 went straight into the Vilkitsky strait!"

Yes, and have you strenght to admit that the sinkings were marked well W of the strait in that site?


Juha

What's your point ?

Did you note that the Kara sea is more treacherous than the Lapta sea ? Yet the German Uboats operated straight in the middle of the worst section! Heck even Scheer went there, with NO icebreakers!

 

[Juha]

Point?
You claimed earlier that U-302 and -354 attacked and sunk 2 ships inside the strait, and I claimed that sinkings happened clearly W of strait. So were the sinkings in the strait according to Uboat.net?

IIRC the well known sortie of Scheer went only near Dikson well W of the strait

Juha

 

[Soren]

Soren loves the place Adler!!!!

Is that an invitation ????! I'd go in a heartbeat !

{Perhaps you two will be neighbors....}

I hope he's not a policeman there though, cause then I'll definitely have to watch what I say! Jokes are out of the question!

It'll probably go something like this:

Adler: Hello Soren
Soren: Hello Adler
Adler: Soren I hopefully wont have to listen to all your bullshit Über German crap now that we're neighbours do I ?
Soren: Wow wow wow! Why so harsh??
Adler: *rolleyes* Come on! It was just a joke, don't take it so damn personally all the time!
Soren: ?? Err.. ok. Btw now that were making jokes, do you know what happened to the tomato which tried to cross the street ? *grin*
Adler: What are you insinuating?! Are you calling me a tomato ??! That's it pal, you just got a timeout!
Soren: But..
Adler: Shh!!

 

[Njaco]

An attack on Alaska would be nothing more than say, the attack on Pearl Harbor. Because its not part of the Continental US it would get the populace pissed instead of causing terror.

And why a sub to Alaska? Weren't the Japanese in the Aluetians or nearby? Couldn't German commandos gone overland to Japan and taken a ride from there? I think that would be much easier.

 

[Soren]

Point?
You claimed earlier that U-302 and -354 attacked and sunk 2 ships inside the strait, and I claimed that sinkings happened clearly W of strait. So were the sinkings in the strait according to Uboat.net?

IIRC the well known sortie of Scheer went only near Dikson well W of the strait

Juha

The book says they attacked in the strait, that all I'm gonna say about that, and it's a new book btw. But that exactly changes what in our debate about the Northern route ??? Nothing! as a multitude of German Uboats operated successfully within the strait, and NONE I repeat NONE were lost there due to hitting icepacks. No on the contrary the Uboats clearly demonstrated they were capable of operating the worst section of the proposed route, and thus it is quite clear they could've went straight through and into the Laptev sea, the only reason they didn't was because there were no valuable targets in the area. The KM did after-all successfully operate in the even more treacherous Kara sea, and why ? Because there were targets to strike there.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

It'll probably go something like this:

Adler: Hello Soren
Soren: Hello Adler
Adler: Soren I hopefully wont have to listen to all your bullshit Über German crap now that we're neighbours do I ?
Soren: Wow wow wow! Why so harsh??
Adler: *rolleyes* Come on! It was just a joke, don't take it so damn personally all the time!
Soren: ?? Err.. ok. Btw now that were making jokes, do you know what happened to the tomato which tried to cross the street ? *grin*
Adler: What are you insinuating?! Are you calling me a tomato ??! That's it pal, you just got a timeout!
Soren: But..
Adler: Shh!!

I told you take our little spat to the PM. Is that to hard to understand? Would you care for another infraction?

 

[lesofprimus]

Soren u are openly mocking a Moderator now, and this sh!t is gonna stop now... U got me pissed off, and if u reply in any sorta smart ass remark, Im gonna ban ur Uber German loving ass...

I beg u, please say something smartass...

 

[Glider]

The book says they attacked in the strait, that all I'm gonna say about that, and it's a new book btw. But that exactly changes what in our debate about the Northern route ??? Nothing! as a multitude of German Uboats operated successfully within the strait, and NONE I repeat NONE were lost there due to hitting icepacks. No on the contrary the Uboats clearly demonstrated they were capable of operating the worst section of the proposed route, and thus it is quite clear they could've went straight through and into the Laptev sea, the only reason they didn't was because there were no valuable targets in the area. The KM did after-all successfully operate in the even more treacherous Kara sea, and why ? Because there were targets to strike there.

Soren
We seem to have gone from great success, to a multitude of U Boats operating successfully.
Can I ask what results all this effort achieved and if that fits your description of successfully?
Personally if all this multitude of U Boats only achieved what you have described then that doesn't fit my definition of Successfully. It would fit a description of a huge waste of time and resources, or almost total abject failure but it could depend on the definition of success.
I have asked before what was achieved after November 1942 but received no reply, can you amplify further what this success was?

 

[syscom3]

Soren, why not expend your energy in coming up with a successfull plan to attack the "soft" and poorly defended targets in the Gulf of Mexico.

I already gave you an option. Use your commando's to hijack a ship and use it for operations.

 

[Juha]

Rohwer used the war diaries of the C-in-C of Submarines, the Chief of Submarines North Sea (Norway), and other commanders, U-boats logs, torpedo data reports in which the U-boat captains carefully recorded each torpedo attack, incl. detailed firing data, figures, target observation, and plots also years of conversations and written correspondence with key figures from Dönitz downwards, incl numerous ex. submarines and all is checked against Allied info. for ex U-354 hit but not sink 3771 tn Petrovskij at 75.15 N/ 84.30E, so only sinking was 2900 tn Dikson by U-302. So for their efforts U-boats sunk one and damaged one ship in Aug 43 in the Kara Sea.
So if one wants info on U-boat successes, Rohwer's book is the book.

If you want to know what the Germans knew or more exactly how little they knew on situation in the Kara Sea in July 42, try to find out the report of the Group Command North which led to Operation Wunderland (Admiral Scheer's sortie a month later). And Germans had no idea on the ice situation in the East Siberian Sea, which had been so difficult area to cross during Komet's passage 2 years earlier. Laptev Sea had easier ice-situation because of the Lena-river. So IMHO the NW Passage wasn't a realistic option to KM in the summer 42.

Juha

 

[Juha]

BTW
for those who want rely on facts and not beliefs one find some info on the NW Passage passage of the KM's disguised merchant cruiser Komet in summer 40 from here Vladimir Kroupnik. The "Komet" raider

As one can see the real problems began E of the Vilkitsky strait.

Juha

 

[Soren]

And you base that on a single event Juha ??

The real problems started in the Kara sea, the Laptev sea freezes up later and is less covered with pack ice. All that needed be done was cross the Vilkitsky strait, then the way was open.

Here again an excerpt from Unknown Waters by Alfred S. McLaren, Captain, USN (Retired), 2008:

""Seasoned German Arctic U-boat veterans, including Hans-Gunther Lange of U-711, who made the longest uninterrupted patrol in the Kara and "West Siberian" seas from 22 July to 30 September 1943, were a confident lot. They considered that 'a submarine is never helpless in the ice because it can submerge, proceed under the ice. select an open area with the aid of its high-angle periscope, come to the surface, recharge the battery with the diesels, and submerge again.' They also observed that 'the sea is always calm in the drift ice even if a gale is blowing' and that 'there are always clear lanes in the drift ice which permits boats to proceed.' "

Soren, why not expend your energy in coming up with a successfull plan to attack the "soft" and poorly defended targets in the Gulf of Mexico.

I already gave you an option. Use your commando's to hijack a ship and use it for operations.

We can do that syscom3 but I need to know exactly where the targets are located syscom3.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

We can do that syscom3 but I need to know exactly where the targets are located syscom3.

Figure out the targets yourself!

You are the one that came up with the meaningless target of Alaska. Why Alaska?

 

[Soren]

Figure out the targets yourself!

We're talking about the Mexico Gulf Adler, not Alaska. The targets in Alaska would've been Anchorage and the airbase in Fairbanks.

You are the one that came up with the meaningless target of Alaska. Why Alaska?

Meaningless ? Adler I've already explained the purpose of the attacks. Also if an attack on the airbase in Fairbanks is possible that might very well prove pretty devastating.

 

[parsifal]

It is difficult to pinpoint the coldest place oin the Northern hemisphere, but according to one source, this was the following comment

Considerable controversy has arisen about the record low temperature extremes at Verkhoyanskbecause of instrument corrections. From Dr. A. Meshcherskaya: "It is accepted that the coldest temperature for the Northern Hemisphere occurred in Verkhoyansk, Russia on 6 and 7, 1892. But in those days the temperature was measured by spirit thermometer, which is less accurate than a mercury thermometer. The spirit is the evaporating liquid, therefore measurement by spirit thermometers must be corrected (usually the correction is positive, being about 0.2°C, but is not so simple). According to "Climate of the USSR, issue 24, part I, Leningrad, 1956," the coldest temperature (-67.7°C) occurred in Oimaykon on 6 February 1933. It is necessary to have in view that winters in East Siberia during the 20th century have become about 3°C warmer.
By the opinion of the majority of Russian climatologists, the coldest place in the Northern Hemisphere is Oimyakon. Since the 30-th years of 20th century, almost every winter Oimaykon is colder than Verkhoyansk. The mean difference of minimum winter (December-February) temperature in Verkhoyanskand in Oimyakon for 43 coupled

I have never been to the Northern arctic zones, but I did volunteer for the re-supply run to Australian Antarctic Base, at Mawson. The temperatures on that trip toched -30 degrees, celsius. I got so sick i passed out, fell into a coma, and didnt regain conscouiusness for nearly five days. I never returned to full duties, and was discharged from the navy within four months.

In Russia, the troops experienced conditions as low as -40 degrees, but even though this happened quite a bit, it was an unusual event, according to my stepfather . It was more normal for temperatures to be at -10 to -25, occasionally ther might even be a partial thaw for a few days, with tempaeratures climbing into the positve zone.

At minus 60, it is impossible for people to survive in the open for long. Just for you non-metric people to get a handle on that, I make that -76 degrees F. The coldest recorded natural temperature in history is -83C at the russian base in Antarctica, in 1983.

-60 is getting very close to a northern hemisphere record. People dont survive long outside in those temperatures

 

[Soren]

In -60 degrees a liter of water freezes before it falls a meter, looks weird.

Btw Parsifal, what did you get so sick from ? Going into a koma is serious!