lesofprimus
Brigadier General
UMMMMMM... No......
Germans demand apology for allied bombing raids
- Thread starter cheddar cheese
- Start date
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Nonskimmer
Captain
cheddar cheese said:Would you prefer it if I said "That bit where you see his cock is brilliant!"?
You're reeeaally starting to worry me, CC!
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
na we get it all the time at school...............
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Anonymous
Guest
cheddar cheese said:No but its totally unecassary...
Would you prefer it if I said "That bit where you see his cock is brilliant!"?
No it was totally necessary. You need to watch it again and open your mind a bit to get the point of that scene. It's hillarous.
- Thread starter
- #305
cheddar cheese
Major General
I would have done that a long time ago if I was actually in my mind in the first place...
HealzDevo
Staff Sergeant
Good point, really good point. The French really did have a chance but they blew it by retreating. If they had of stood their ground and used what equipment they had to the full advantage, with British help, the Blitz would maybe never have happened, as it was only from French coastal fighter fields that the Luftwaffe fighters could cross the channel. That was why I think France was considered a target, that and the fact of its history with Germany. I still stand by my points that a Free Britain was an embarressment to Germany as it gave hope to the resistance movements in occupied countries that the Germans were not an infalliable war machine, that rolled on like a giant steam-roller, as up until that time Hitler had gone from victory to victory. The Battle Of Britain was Hitler's first (at least major) defeat during WW2.
trackend
Chief Master Sergeant
I don't know if any of you guys in the UK watch the history channel but yesterday Max Hasting in a discussion regarding the bombing of Dresden said that the Russians requested it be bombed as well as Leipzig have any of you read anything about this as I cant find anything about this request.
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
This source would interest me very much. Can You maybe reference this? Even General Zhukov was against this bombing, because he needed Dresden and it´s central railway system to further deploy troops deep within Germany.
However, Dresden was one of the reasons why the soviets were that widely accepted as an occupational force in the soviet occupational zone directly after VE-day. Many thought that the red army has to fight all the war with Nazi Germany while the UK and US dropped bombs from the air, only (the soviets never carried out a strategic bombing campaign). While this is incorrect, it declares why the soviets have been accepted that soon by germans.
However, Dresden was one of the reasons why the soviets were that widely accepted as an occupational force in the soviet occupational zone directly after VE-day. Many thought that the red army has to fight all the war with Nazi Germany while the UK and US dropped bombs from the air, only (the soviets never carried out a strategic bombing campaign). While this is incorrect, it declares why the soviets have been accepted that soon by germans.
I haven't heard of that, even in Max Hastings book "Armageddon" it doesn't mention the Soviets requesting the bombings. Although, I might have just forgotten since I read "Burma" then "Armageddon" then "Monte Cassino" then "Hitlers Samurai" all in quick succesion.
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Anonymous
Guest
delcyros said:
I really doubt that is the reason. The Germans were just afriad of the Russians. After the "three days" that Stalin gave his troops after VE day, the German people certianly hated the Russians even more than they did before.
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Lunatic
trackend
Chief Master Sergeant
I found this link see what you fellas make of it as far as I can tell it seems to point to a general request by the Russians to attack communications not specific targets. https://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/PopTopics/dresden.htm
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
The analysis is interesting, but it is an interpretation which doesn´t proof anything. There are also some mistakes about the industries in Dresden (Zeiss Ikon for example), but they may come from wrong intellegences. In fact the soviets did not asked for the bombing of Dresden. The analysis also doesn´t reflect other purposes of "communication" (which is an extremely general term) targets: The destruction of advanced german technology in the later soviet occupational zone. The Berlin bombing of 15 th of march had the aim to destroy the Auer Werke of Oranienburg (which was responsible for production of Uranium and Thorium). Even in Speers notices you find on 3rd of april 1945:"...even while the enemy believes to win the war in within weeks, there has been a significant change in bombing strategy. (...) The latest bombings of electrical industries in Berlin, the tooling industries in Saxonia or the optical industries in Thuringia have been highly systematic, this is interesting because the products of these industries will not come into effect prior to months later (when the allies believe to have already won the war...). Or are there other reasons behind the bombings, which are not related with request by war?" The Chief of the british air forces, Charles Porter, understood that the heavy bombers are not suited for military target bombings (the official reason was -as to be seen in the analysis- military aid for the advancing red army) and he suggested to bomb the oil industries and storages once more. Churchill himself told him that these bombings are not to prevent troop relocations but to destroy cities in eastern Germany.
And while it is incorrect that Dresden was the main reason why the soviets have been accepted that soon, it remains fact that this was part of political "education" (call it propaganda) in school in eastern Germany. It is also very interesting that the germans fought so furiuos against the advancing red army even as late as april ´45, while they refused any substantial defense on the western front. Even with this in mind they abolutely lay down arms on 8th of may, no further pocket defense or anything else.
(..and yes, the soviets have been hated by people, as the germans have been hated by soviets...)
And while it is incorrect that Dresden was the main reason why the soviets have been accepted that soon, it remains fact that this was part of political "education" (call it propaganda) in school in eastern Germany. It is also very interesting that the germans fought so furiuos against the advancing red army even as late as april ´45, while they refused any substantial defense on the western front. Even with this in mind they abolutely lay down arms on 8th of may, no further pocket defense or anything else.
(..and yes, the soviets have been hated by people, as the germans have been hated by soviets...)
RG_Lunatic said:
This you are absolutely correct. My wifes Grandmother still has a deep seated hatred built in here because of the raping she endured over and over again and she was still a little girl. The Germans did not accept the Russians anymore than the Russians excepted the Germans. By the time the war was over both sides hated each other and it not without wonder considering the attrocities committed by both sides toward each other.
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Anonymous
Guest
I have to wonder how many of the E. German children born in Jan/Feb 1946 actually had Russian fathers? And I wonder how these children were treated.
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Lunatic
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Lunatic
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
Can tell you:
There have been rates of suicides in Berlin at mid 1945 (females of age 13-40) of about 12 % in four months(!). (can dig out the source if needed)
An uncle of my girlfriend is a child of that raping. He was treated badly by his parents (..not his sisters) in the 50´s and 60´s. In the 70´s he tried to flee the GDR (..and was captured just in the moment he dived into the river Spree, which divided Berlin..) and after 10 years of prisonship he managed to exit officially the GDR. Later he made an academic degree in chemics and biology, where he still works. I like him, he has quite some interesting storys to tell.
There have been rates of suicides in Berlin at mid 1945 (females of age 13-40) of about 12 % in four months(!). (can dig out the source if needed)
An uncle of my girlfriend is a child of that raping. He was treated badly by his parents (..not his sisters) in the 50´s and 60´s. In the 70´s he tried to flee the GDR (..and was captured just in the moment he dived into the river Spree, which divided Berlin..) and after 10 years of prisonship he managed to exit officially the GDR. Later he made an academic degree in chemics and biology, where he still works. I like him, he has quite some interesting storys to tell.
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Anonymous
Guest
Well, it just goes to show that if you are going to execute a brutal moral-less war of agression, you better win.
And if you are going to loose, you better make sure it is the Americans who you loose to.
I cannot understand why, in about Feb. 1945 or even earlier, the Germans didn't throw everything they had against the Soviets and allow the USA and Britain to occupy all of Germany to keep the Soviets out. Sheer madness to allow the Soviets to take half their country!
Had the German's spent the forces they used at the Battle of the Bulge against the Soviets, the post-war map would have been totally different.
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Lunatic
And if you are going to loose, you better make sure it is the Americans who you loose to.
I cannot understand why, in about Feb. 1945 or even earlier, the Germans didn't throw everything they had against the Soviets and allow the USA and Britain to occupy all of Germany to keep the Soviets out. Sheer madness to allow the Soviets to take half their country!
Had the German's spent the forces they used at the Battle of the Bulge against the Soviets, the post-war map would have been totally different.
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Lunatic
Good point. I personally think that Hitler had given up on Germany and wanted it all or nothing and was prepared to let Germany be completely destroyed by the Russians if need be.
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Anonymous
Guest
DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
Well, I really don't think this was the case. Hitler could have authorized the use of nerve gas against the Russians, but choose not to. He did not want to be remembered for having made the Fatherland uninhabitable.
I suspect that Hitler somehow thought they were going to manage a comeback right into May 1945.
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Lunatic
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
Actually, beside of the Battle of the Bulge, they throw nearly all they had against soviet forces (including suicide attacks against the river Oder bridgeheads). The last offensive battle was in hungary at march 1945. In april they fought a major battle in front of the gates of Berlin (at the heights of Seelow, approx. 20.000 german and between 50.000 and 80.000 soviet soldiers died) and later a battle at Halbe/Teupitz. All against soviet forces. Germany simply lacked in fuel to field most weapons (most piston driven planes to be silenced in march) properly. I cannot see any substantial defefense later than march 1945 against the western forces. And I think, you are right, Hitler and other Nazi leaders believed in a cease fire on the west (esspecially after Roosevelts death). And they relied on their "secret weapons", it shows their stupidness...
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Anonymous
Guest
By March it was too late. If the German's had made their stand against the Russians in Dec. 1944 - early Feb. 1945 while simultaneously opening the gates to the US/Brit forces, the map would have been very different. By April, nothing was going to stop Stalin from claiming his prize, even if that meant war with the W. Allies.
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Lunatic
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Lunatic
