If the Rare Bear became a ww2 fighter.

[stona]

It is utterly pointless to assess the fighting capabilities of any type using data (limited and incomplete to boot) from one combat.....period.

It is also pointless to apply criteria established on paper or by service and prototype testing to aircraft in front line service, configured in ways that are unknown or subject of supposition.

Cheers

Steve

 

[parsifal]

The Ta 152 was a great design I think, but was not a wonder weapon

 

[GregP]

Spot on Parsifal. The real-world performance just did NOT match the hype.

Given the state of the German forces in early 1945 versus the state of Allied forces at the time, it is not all that surprising. The Ta 152 doubtless had great potential and deserves an honorable mention, but with so few in service accomplishing so little, and going out of service when ANYTHING went wrong due to no spare parts, it is not the fearsome weapon portrtayed by the Ta 152 applauders.

I'd say it was not to be feared almost at all since it was hard to find one and, more than likely if you saw one, you had them outnumbered very many to one and they were probably instantly on the defensive.

I would NOT be surprised if a gaggle of Ta 152's might even be bypassed by Allied fighters as just not worth it, depending on what their mission was. It would not be a case of overconfidence. More one of practical considerations. If they had to attack a target, it could well be the case that they would do that first and maybe hit the Ta 152's on the way back if theywere still around.

Now if they were attacking Me 262 bases and the Ta 152's were guarding the jets, then the combat would be part of the mission and I assume they would not be ignored at all. I've heard tales of people saying Allied fighters ignored the Me 262's in the pattern becasue of the Ta 152 guards, but have never been able to confirm that in talking to or hearing talk over 400 WWII fighter pilots who were there. The question was asked of most of the 15 -20 guys who said they saw the Ta 152's in the air on at least one occasion.

I never asked a German pilot that because I've never spoken with or heard speak a WWII German Ta 152 pilot except one that said he delivered some of them from the factory to the front lines. There was no question of combat as he said the delivery guys many times didn't even have ammunition ... just barely enough fuel to get to the destination base plus a little extra in case of traffic in the pattern.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The Ta 152 was a great design I think, but was not a wonder weapon

Other than the atomic bomb, what was in 1945?

 

[GrauGeist]

Other than the atomic bomb, what was in 1945?

The Nazi UFOs

 

[GregP]

The B-29 would have been one and I daresay the Me 262, in sufficient numbers, might well have made the list. The American version of the V-1 could have been produced in extreme numbers. Had that happened, it might have made the list ... but didn't. I think the 10,000 and 20,000 pound bombs qualified, too. At least they would have had it come much closer tham 1/2 mile to any of us.

Another "almost made it to wonder weapon status" was the German very late war submarines, the Types XXI XXIII. I am VERY glad these were late in coming to fruition.

Perhaps the biggest "wonder weapon" of WWII was the Russian Winter weather. It swallowed a LOT of raw materail in the guise of both men and equipment.

 

[stona]

The question was asked of most of the 15 -20 guys who said they saw the Ta 152's in the air on at least one occasion.

I don't for a second doubt what they said, but I would be amazed if aircraft recognition skills, particularly in a potential or actual combat situation, were good enough to distinguish a Ta 152 from what allied pilots called 'a long nosed Fw 190' meaning Fw 190 D.

There were so few Ta 152s delivered to the Luftwaffe and even fewer serviceable at any time, so that inevitably the vast majority of allied pilots definitely never saw one. Even 15-20 out of several hundred seems a lot. Most Luftwaffe pilots never saw one either!

Cheers

Steve

 

[parsifal]

Other than the atomic bomb, what was in 1945?

oh boy what a can of worms this will be.

Some suggestions

Me 262, AR 234 ....more potential wonder weapons than real ones
US Fast Carrier forces....There had been nothing comparable before it and it changed the nature of naval awarfare and force projection
US trucks....tough, reliable unstoppable
P-51....a real game changer that Germany was unable to answer in the finish
Soviet massed artillery....unstoppable once it got cranked.
STG 44 rifles. probably did more to shape the nature of small units capability than any other personal side arm
The liberty ship.....was probably the single most important ship type of the war.

 

[GrauGeist]

oh boy what a can of worms this will be.

Some suggestions

Me 262, AR 234 ....more potential wonder weapons than real ones
US Fast Carrier forces....There had been nothing comparable before it and it changed the nature of naval awarfare and force projection
US trucks....tough, reliable unstoppable
P-51....a real game changer that Germany was unable to answer in the finish
Soviet massed artillery....unstoppable once it got cranked.
STG 44 rifles. probably did more to shape the nature of small units capability than any other personal side arm
The liberty ship.....was probably the single most important ship type of the war.

I don't see how any of those can be classified as a "Wonder Weapon"

They are a natural progression of existing technology. When aircraft first appeared over the battlefield during WWI, it was exclaimed as a new wonder of modern warfare...anything afterword is just evolution.

The same can be said for the modern nuclear subs, as being the descendant of a "wonder weapon"; the CSS Hunley.

So the Atom Bomb = yes

The Me262, Ta152, P-51D, etc. etc. = no

 

[drgondog]

I would NOT be surprised if a gaggle of Ta 152's might even be bypassed by Allied fighters as just not worth it, depending on what their mission was. It would not be a case of overconfidence. More one of practical considerations. If they had to attack a target, it could well be the case that they would do that first and maybe hit the Ta 152's on the way back if theywere still around.

"Gaggles" of ANY LW type would be bounced on sight. Maybe only a section or even a squadron - out of a Group would attack them

Now if they were attacking Me 262 bases and the Ta 152's were guarding the jets, then the combat would be part of the mission and I assume they would not be ignored at all. I've heard tales of people saying Allied fighters ignored the Me 262's in the pattern becasue of the Ta 152 guards, but have never been able to confirm that in talking to or hearing talk over 400 WWII fighter pilots who were there. The question was asked of most of the 15 -20 guys who said they saw the Ta 152's in the air on at least one occasion.

Telling a FW 190D from a Ta 152 at a distance would be very difficult. What source stated that they 'avoided' 262s because of nearby Ta 152s?

I never asked a German pilot that because I've never spoken with or heard speak a WWII German Ta 152 pilot except one that said he delivered some of them from the factory to the front lines. There was no question of combat as he said the delivery guys many times didn't even have ammunition ... just barely enough fuel to get to the destination base plus a little extra in case of traffic in the pattern.

It would be far easier to see from a logbook or report by a Ta 152 pilot where they engaged Allied fighters than to gain some differentiation from an Allied report on Fw 190D vs 109 vs Ta 152 based on a lot of fighter pilot ID skills. A good friend, Bill Lyons, shot down a 109D-9 based on location and time but thought it was a 109 because of the inline nose.. the final giveaway later is his clear recollection of wing root guns shooting at him.

 

[fastmongrel]

Other than the atomic bomb, what was in 1945?

Penicillin

 

[tomo pauk]

Agreed with what people said above that there was about zero chance that Allied pilots will tell the Ta-152 vs. the Fw-190D while in combat.
The noses of the 1st P-47s in ETO were painted with bright colors and patterns, so they don't get shot because thy got mistaken for the Fw-190s. The Hampdens were several times mistaken for the Do-17s, even the Hurricanes did get shot some times, being mistaken for LW aircraft in 1939/40.
It is possible that maybe 90% of the Allied pilots, that fought in 1945 never knew the Ta-152 existed.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

oh boy what a can of worms this will be.

Some suggestions

Me 262, AR 234 ....more potential wonder weapons than real ones
US Fast Carrier forces....There had been nothing comparable before it and it changed the nature of naval awarfare and force projection
US trucks....tough, reliable unstoppable
P-51....a real game changer that Germany was unable to answer in the finish
Soviet massed artillery....unstoppable once it got cranked.
STG 44 rifles. probably did more to shape the nature of small units capability than any other personal side arm
The liberty ship.....was probably the single most important ship type of the war.

None are wonder weapons. Some are evolutionary and some are revolutionary, but they are not "Wonder Weapons".

The term wonder weapon is used too loosely, and usually in a derogitory way to downplay something.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The B-29 would have been one and I daresay the Me 262, in sufficient numbers, might well have made the list. The American version of the V-1 could have been produced in extreme numbers. Had that happened, it might have made the list ... but didn't. I think the 10,000 and 20,000 pound bombs qualified, too. At least they would have had it come much closer tham 1/2 mile to any of us.

Another "almost made it to wonder weapon status" was the German very late war submarines, the Types XXI XXIII. I am VERY glad these were late in coming to fruition.

Perhaps the biggest "wonder weapon" of WWII was the Russian Winter weather. It swallowed a LOT of raw materail in the guise of both men and equipment.

None of them "wonder weapons". Evolutionary designs with revolutionary features...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I don't see how any of those can be classified as a "Wonder Weapon"

They are a natural progression of existing technology. When aircraft first appeared over the battlefield during WWI, it was exclaimed as a new wonder of modern warfare...anything afterword is just evolution.

The same can be said for the modern nuclear subs, as being the descendant of a "wonder weapon"; the CSS Hunley.

So the Atom Bomb = yes

The Me262, Ta152, P-51D, etc. etc. = no

Ding, ding, ding....

Tell him what he won!

The only one so far who grasps it.

 

[stona]

It is possible that maybe 90% of the Allied pilots, that fought in 1945 never knew the Ta-152 existed.

Yes, but closer to 100%. Why would they know of a new aircraft introduced in completely insignificant numbers? There were never more than a handful flying at any one time. It is completely irrelevant in the context of WW2 and because the Germans lost, it became almost totally irrelevant in terms of the history of piston engine fighters. It was certainly no wonder weapon. It was yet another development of the Fw 190.

The Hawker Typhoon was painted with recognition markings somewhat like the distinctive markings for the Normandy invasion because it was easily confused with the Fw 190, on more than one occasion with fatal consequences.
I sit in my living room and look at models of a Fw 190 and a Typhoon side by side and they look nothing like one another. The cockpit of a WW2 fighter, in a potentially lethal situation, is a very different place.

Cheers

Steve

 

[fastmongrel]

Y
I sit in my living room and look at models of a Fw 190 and a Typhoon side by side and they look nothing like one another. The cockpit of a WW2 fighter, in a potentially lethal situation, is a very different place.

Cheers

Steve

I have been to airshows and without the showguide or being able to hear the commentary its difficult to say whats coming next and they are only doing about 150 knots. Also no ones firing at you and the only distraction is trying not to drop your ice cream.

 

[GregP]

I suppose it depends on whose definition of "wonder deapon" we are using. I have my own and everyone else doubtless has theirs. I think of the proverbial wonder weapon as a "game changer," and there most certaily WERE a few of those.

Hi Bill. Merry Christmas. You may have a point about looking at Ta 152 logbooks ... if we can find any ... I can't read German anyway. As for gaggles of Luftwaffe fighters not being bypassed, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I've heard too many former WWII pilots state that very thing to buy into the "attack at any cost" theory. Still, it makes no difference now. The real truths are probably lost as these guys pass on anyway, and that's happening at an accelerated rate as we read this, just due to age.

Again, Happy Holidays to everyone.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I suppose it depends on whose definition of "wonder deapon" we are using. I have my own and everyone else doubtless has theirs. I think o the proverbial wonder weapon as a "game changer," and tehre most certaily WERE a few of those.

Hi Bill. Merry Christmas. You may have a point about looking at Ta 152 logbooks ... if we can find any ... I can't read German anyway. As for gaggles of Luftwaffe fighters not being bypassed, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I've heard too many former WWII pilots state that very thing to buy into the "attack at any cost" theory. Still, it makes no difference now. The real truths are probably lost as these guys pass on anyway, and that's happening at an accelerated rate as we read this, just due to age.

Again, Happy Holidays to everyone.

Thats a flawed theory. The Bf 109 was a game changer at one point. The Spitfire as well. The T-34 was a game changer.

 

[GregP]

Yes, I agree, they were, at one point. My definition is only flawed if I agree to go with yours instead, which you so far have not stated or, if you have, I missed it.

My definition isn't flawed as far as I'm concerned.

If you state yours, maybe we can go with that one. I won't agree or disagree with it until I know what it is ...

However, to the average German pilot, seeing several hundred P-51's and 1,000 B-17's fly over your home airfield must have been wondrous ... in reverse. It must have been the stuff of nightmares.