syscom3
Pacific Historian
If i had a sextant, I could have plotted the course. Not enough to drop bombs, but enough to know where we were at within a box of so many miles.
Lancaster Vs. B-24
- Thread starter the lancaster kicks ass
- Start date
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If i had a sextant, I could have plotted the course. Not enough to drop bombs, but enough to know where we were at within a box of so many miles.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Dont laugh. During the LA riots in '92, the thugs were shooting at aircraft.
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
I'll agree the lanc probably carried the most tonnage with exception of the 29 but it in no way could have suceeded in the day enviroment with the 17 or 24 its niche was night bombing I shudder to think what the losses would be if Bomber Command had attempted a Regensberg or Ploesti type raid. Even if the technology used by Bomber Command to target the objective was as accurate as the MK1 eyeball used in day missions was as accurate as the 17/24 in CEP is something I've never seen
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
If you'd had a sextant I'd advise you to throw it out the window because it's only going to tell you you're exact position providing you could get a fix. You still cannot determine winds aloft which will blow you easily off course in a matter of minutes and above seven or eight thousand feet you could start encountering winds in excess of 40 mph. Sextants were installed on aircraft but for the most part they were useless, and I haven't even brought up high clouds obscuring the night sky.... That box of many miles could turn into a few hundered real quick!!!
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Or North Africa, just ask the Navigator of "Lady be Good."
Emac44
Staff Sergeant
Damn who would want to be a navigator anywhere in that time of historical period flyboy night day evening morning. depending on the aircraft you could be responsible for others lives as well as your own. make one stuff up in calculations read wind speed velocity wrong take one bearing incorrectly and you could be history and along with other men in the aircraft and it didn't matter in which theatre of war you was flying in. mistakes could and did cost men their lives
Emac44
Staff Sergeant
in 1939 to 1945 German Italian Vichy French and Japanese were also shooting at Allied Aircraft too. but its ok Allies shot back at the enemies aircraft so it seemed to even itself if you could call it that. If in doubt refer to Herman Georing's claim about enemy bombs falling on the Third Reich. After that Herman's Nickname was Meyer when he got proved wrong.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
That's right - and my point from the earlier post, comparing DR in a Cessna somewhere over the Southwestern US (Even in the most desolate places) is still a piece of cake when compared with what a WW2 navigator had to do, even in the most simplest situations.
Just start with the fact that the Nav would, after his first mission, tie bits of string to all his implements, to anchor them to his table. On the first sortie he did, the whole lot ended up scattered all down the fuselage after a brisk corkscrew by the pilot... On subsequent sorties, the only piece of navigation equipment to get thrown around was himself. Start with that.
And to confirm what Emac44 says, my father was one of two survivors out of the 30-odd cadet pilots at his SFTS in Carberry, Manitoba. The rest got the chop.
And to confirm what Emac44 says, my father was one of two survivors out of the 30-odd cadet pilots at his SFTS in Carberry, Manitoba. The rest got the chop.
Oh, and Lancs did operate by day from time to time. And got chopped up just the same way the early, unescorted or inadequately escorted USAAF raids did. The difference was that the US could afford to bull it out and take the casualties, the RAF could not. A question not only of resources in men and machines, but also a decision on whether or not the cost was worth it, given the damage done to the target. Until the advent of the Mustang MkIII and IV, the British answer was that it was not.
It is of significant interest to note that as a rule, by 1944-45, the degree of damage done by the RAF by night was equivalent to that done by the USAAF by day. Admittedly, in the early years, up into 1943, it was none too precise, but that changed.
It is of significant interest to note that as a rule, by 1944-45, the degree of damage done by the RAF by night was equivalent to that done by the USAAF by day. Admittedly, in the early years, up into 1943, it was none too precise, but that changed.
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
The Lanc if it flew daylight missions in the same time period as the 17/24 combo1943 early 44 would not have faired anywhere as well as the 8th airforce . The fact the box was not flown by nor practiced by Bomber Command led to some awful losses . I believe in late Mar 45 6 group got caught without fighter cover on a daylight mission and got crushed . If you look at the Nuremburg raid with its extremely heavy losses of 100+/- aircraft and ask the crews about it they will say it was a daylight raid full moon over overcast skies . Descibed by some as flying in a well lit arena it was akin to a turkey shoot
- Thread starter
- #493
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
haha! the B-17s and B-24s did not survive over Europe, they flew in local air superiority becuase of their P-51 escorts, remember american losses were so high before the 'stang that they were considdering not carrying on the offensive! unescorted B-17s were shot down in droves as no ammount of guns can save you completely, which is why the British had the corkscrew amoung other manouvers, so don't you dare compare the lanc's 40,000 dalight missions at 0.7% losses with the american bombing under heavy escort..........
First of all syscom, dont give me reasons to make assumptions then, because that is all you ever give me.
Oh and dont forget the illusion of False Horizon and Vertigo that the clouds will give you, especially IFR at night. Make you think you think you in a different attitude. If you are not on your game and cant follow your instruments you will get lost real quick if you have not allready dove the aircraft into the ground...
False Horizon and vertigo is the craziest thing I ever felt on an IFR flight. We were wings level and I thought I was upside down in a dive!
Oh and dont forget the illusion of False Horizon and Vertigo that the clouds will give you, especially IFR at night. Make you think you think you in a different attitude. If you are not on your game and cant follow your instruments you will get lost real quick if you have not allready dove the aircraft into the ground...
False Horizon and vertigo is the craziest thing I ever felt on an IFR flight. We were wings level and I thought I was upside down in a dive!
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Everytime I fly IFR I get vertigo - you learn to keep the scan going on those flight instruments.
BTW, last week my father in law got me an hour in the 737 sim, shot some approaches and did IFR work (vertigo of course set in).
BTW, last week my father in law got me an hour in the 737 sim, shot some approaches and did IFR work (vertigo of course set in).
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
The Regensburg and Schweinfurt missions were flown without fighter cover for the most part so was ploesti and many others if the Lanc had done either of those missions I'll bet the loss rates would have been much higher. The Lanc flew most of its daylight missions after the Luftwaffe had started to fade you probably could have used Battles or Hampdens and had lower rates for losses . One must realize we are talking apples and oranges daylight was harder but far more accurate it can't help but be the Pathfinders did good work but were far from perfect .
heres a question are Bomber Command losses including those that crashed due to primitive landing aids upon return or just losses due to enemy action
heres a question are Bomber Command losses including those that crashed due to primitive landing aids upon return or just losses due to enemy action
I learned to control it as well. It scared the **** out of me the first time and then after that I learned how to control and beat it and never had a problem since.
Emac44
Staff Sergeant
Not just the Navigator but the gunners would be sitting on their parachutes the whole time. Especially the mid upper gunner who virtually in a Lancaster is just sitting on a wooden board. you try sitting on that for 7 to 8 hours see how you would feel when you got home to base. And bad enough practise parachute drill. imagine trying to get out of a damage Lancaster and crawling over main spar and the aircraft is spinning and all in pitch dark
Mid uppers parachute was stored beside the turret clipped to the fuselage, he sat on a leather strap.
Prefered escape was, out of turret, clip on chute, climb over two spars going forward, drop into nose section past pilot, drop through escape hatch in floor.
Rear gunner had his chute stored against the fuselage outside the turret. he needed to rotate the turret to facing straight back open the turret door, reach out, grab chute, clip it on his chest, rotate turret and then bail out.
Not fun in daylight flying level. Night time in an aircraft spinning, a nightmare.
photo from Kiwi Aircraft Images
Prefered escape was, out of turret, clip on chute, climb over two spars going forward, drop into nose section past pilot, drop through escape hatch in floor.
Rear gunner had his chute stored against the fuselage outside the turret. he needed to rotate the turret to facing straight back open the turret door, reach out, grab chute, clip it on his chest, rotate turret and then bail out.
Not fun in daylight flying level. Night time in an aircraft spinning, a nightmare.
photo from Kiwi Aircraft Images
Attachments
Emac44
Staff Sergeant
Nightmare is understatement Kiwi. and mid upper gunner still had to climb over main spar to escape. normal flying conditions awkward but in spinning aircraft possibley on fire with smoke billowing through aircraft near impossible. father had said it was a wooden board he sat on with parachute. he claimed it was most uncomfortable all the time
