Mustang crashes into crowd at Reno

[evangilder]

I fully respect your disagreement with my point, and I will try to find a similarly shaped object. I will say that I have a few members of the aviation press looking at the same things I am.

I was not at Reno, and in light of what happened this year, I am glad I wasn't. That is a photo I never want to get, ever.

 

[GregP]

Hi Mr. van Gilder,

The racing was very good right up until the Galloping Ghost crash. The planes were performing and running about as expected. I am somewhat glad I wasn't taking pics at the time because I saw the entire sequence live in real speed. Not being the sensational type of person who watches races for a crash, I did not and do not need pics of the aftermath (although I saw it in person), but am very interested in the events leading up to the emergency.

I am a volunteer at Chino Planes of Fame and spoke with Steve Hinton yesterday when he was able to be between phone calls. He thinks the tailwheel uplock failure precipitated the event (it is possible the tailwheel came down in the Valley of Speed) and, when I look at the inverted pic, I think I see that the entire trim tab did not fail. To me it looks like the inner part of the trim tab failed, from the pivot point up to the trim tab pushrod. I think the rightmost part of the trim tab, from the pushrod to the left pivot is still on the elevator.

In any case, we know the outcome and I hope we find out EXACTLY what happened so we can inspect for it in the future. I see people saying these aircraft are too old to fly but, as a warbird restoration person and as a member of the team restoring America's first jet, a Bell YP-59A Airacomet, I very strongly disagree. If we find anything not right on the Airacomet, we replace it or fix it. When we get done, it should be as good or better than new. I think better because we did things such as installing a fire system in the engine bays that was never installed in the originals and adding firewalls that were never there to start with. In fact, there were lightening holes in the engine bays and fire in one side was passed easily to the other side! We corrected that since we want it to be SAFE. We spent over a year just fitting an emergency canopy release for safety's sake.

Most warbird owners, as you know being who you are, lavish care on these babies, and they are usually in GREAT shape. Not always, but the people who are "sloppy" with warbirds don't race them and they quickly go unairworthy. If they can't afford maintenance, they surely can't afford to go to Reno and race.

Meanwhile, keep up the great pics! If you get to Chino on a Saturday, ask for Greg in the restoration hangar. I'd love to meet you and show you around personally, even if you have been there before.

 

[Matt308]

Very nice, Greg! What an offer!

 

[evangilder]

Hey Greg, I am in agreement that the "old" aircraft still flying today are likely better cared for than when they were used operationally. I know that something catastrophic happened on Galloping Ghost and it precipitated the accident. I have heard a number of things speculated as to the cause and I am more prone to wait and see what the NTSB comes up with.

I would be very interested in seeing how the P-59 is coming along and I know that the folks at the POF don't cut any corners and do it right. I haven't been out there in a while, and my schedule has been hectic lately with shoots and family. But I do plan on getting down there to spend some quality time exploring the museum. I'll keep you posted as to when.

 

[WJPearce]

I was there, I watched it happen. Some years back I met the photographer who took the picture and his brother. I know some of their involvement with several airshows over the years and I saw other photos, while still in the camera, from other photographers less than an hour after the crash which show the same thing, albeit not as clear or sharp. All of us in the pits had a similar view (west of impact).

I saw that photo about 4 hours after the crash on Yahoo news I believe. To me, that is not much time to Photoshop a photo, decide to ruin your career and credibility, and submit it to the wire. I don't think many knew about the tail wheel being down or Leeward not being visible at that point.

Here is the photographer, Tim O'Brien, in his own words (please watch till the end):
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpSqNtbNq7M

I believe the photo is real. It may have been sharpened or had the contrast adjusted etc, but I do not think it was static shot overlaid in the sky.

Maybe the best way to get to the bottom of this is to ask Tim O'Brien what he did to the photo. I don't have his contact info but he runs the Nevada County Airport AirFest air show and probably can be reached through that site, which he also runs. Nevada County AirFest

Garrett Woodman took the other two widely circulated photos from the stands (east of impact).

WJPearce

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Mr. Pearce;

Thank you for your input regarding this "hot" subject on this forum. As an eyewitness to this accident as well as knowing the photographer who took this photo, you probably could speak on this subject matter with more authority than any one on this forum.

The initial photo I saw was posted by Associated Press (AP) and to me it looked very fake. I've consulted with some of my fellow pilot friends, some who have flown in the military and who have been to Reno and they shared the same opinion, but again this is my personal opinion. I am not a photographer and don't claim to be one, just going by what I seen in the initial AP photo. I believe the photographer who you speak about is probably everything you say about him, but IMO, I wouldn't put it past and organization like AP to "play" with a photo like this, again my opinion.

GregP – appreciate your input on all this and your very gracious invitation to Eric – a good friend and an excellent photographer.

To everyone else – this thread got sideways very quickly because one individual choose to become insultive toward one of our Mods who also has and extensive background in aerial photography. It's one thing to disagree and passionately argue your point (something that is encouraged in this forum) but it's another thing to come off like a d!ck straight out of the chute and that will not be tolerated here.

I appreciate the way GregP and Mr. Pearce presented their perspective on this subject, but at the same time I still stand by my personal opinions as well as my comments to certain individuals who engaged their mouths prior to rebooting their brains. My reputation is in tack IMO and I'll just let my peers be the judge of that. I've said it before, if there are some members who don't like the way this forum is run or the fact that some of our members may be a bit gruff (including me) all I can say is "don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out."

This was a terrible tragedy that might see the end of air racing at Reno, something I hope doesn't happen. My prayers go out to all who perished in this accident and I do hope we find out very soon what caused this to happen.

Carry on all!

 

[Midnight Special]

The vertical photo is a doctored fake. The AP was totally duped on that shot. I did a photo analysis on that photo and it is an obvious fake, IMO.

Good morning gentlemen,
My name is Tim O'Brien and I took the photos at Reno in question. The photos are real and the NTSB who I visited on the following morning as well as the newspaper I represented have the original files from my camera chip... In addition, I received NO payment nor will I accept any offers to capitalize on this tragedy. I was simply there to do my job while attending (and promoting) the races as I have done for 39 years. While I can appreciate (and welcome) anyone who questions authenticity, doing so in this manor only leads to your own mis-information. The vertical photo was taken from the pits on the other side of the incident from most you have seen from the grandstands, a split second before impact. I submitted the photos to The Grass Valley Union based on my assignment, and to the NTSB based on a hunch to further their investigation. I had NO idea or anticipation they would go world wide as they did... And again - NO payment or compensation was received or desired. I hope this helps to clear the air. Please join the rest of us now in prayer and support for all who were deeply affected... Thank you.

Respectfully,

Tim

 

[razor1uk]

Thank you Sir.
I humble appreciate your honesty, and I think speaking for all here, we all do too. Ideally you shouldn't have to put yourself out like this regarding such an event, just as with todays media, you can partially see how it went that way here.

I hope too as stated many times in the few relative threads to do with this, that the bereaved, injured lost and wounded recover as well and quicker than expected. Offering my continued humble thoughts of solace to them, with remorse for our human natures of inquery and hypothesis.

Respects to you Sir, for nodoubt having to go to a few/many sites for such reasons.

Lewis M Cummings/raor1uk

P.S. Welcome to the forum too, pity were it not for better reasons...

 

[Lighthunmust]

Thank you Sir.
I humble appreciate your honesty, and I think speaking for all here, we all do too. Ideally you shouldn't have to put yourself out like this regarding such an event, just as with todays media, you can partially see how it went that way here.

I hope too as stated many times in the few relative threads to do with this, that the bereaved, injured lost and wounded recover as well and quicker than expected. Offering my continued humble thoughts of solace to them, with remorse for our human natures of inquery and hypothesis.

Respects to you Sir, for nodoubt having to go to a few/many sites for such reasons.

Lewis M Cummings/raor1uk

P.S. Welcome to the forum too, pity were it not for better reasons...

Thank you Mr. Pearce for your courtesy.

Thank you Mr. O'Brien for your courtesy, patience, and honor.

Thank you Mr. Cummings for saying what I could not have said better myself.

Regards,

Steve

 

[claidemore]

As a photo enthusiast for many years, I think I can offer a possible explanation for the excellent lighting on the photo in question.
There is another forum with a series of photos from that incident. Galloping Ghost crash Reno 2011 - Page 5
In post 68 we see three photos where the plane is very dark, which shows that the auto exposure programming is taking a general reading for the available light, resulting in a dark subject (underexposed, probably from center weighted light metering). The last image shows blue sky and a properly exposed subject.
It would look like whatever auto exposure setting was being used got fooled (subject is not in center of photo where center weighted metering would be reading the light) and exposed for backlight on the last photo, giving us a 'blue' sky and a better exposed plane.
In the O'Brien photo being discussed we again see a patch of blue, indicating to me that this photo was taken at a similar exposure setting to the last one in post 68 at the other forum. Note that in post #69 the camera has reverted back to underexposing, and note that this is a port side image as well.
Admittedly much of this could be done in post editing, but if we give the photographer the benifit of doubt, there is a perfectly good explanation.

 

[evangilder]

Tim,
Thank you for coming on here to offer up your side of it. I issue a mea culpa. I don't know what caused the pixel after-effects of the image, possibly post processing by the AP or some other part of digital photography. But I will go on record to say that I was wrong in my analysis. And thanks to GregP and WJPearce for presenting their arguments in a respectful manner.

Eric

 

[barney]

AAF MANUAL 51-127-5
Pilot Training Manual
P-51
page 70 – Dive Recovery Procedure

"3. As the airplane continues to accelerate, it again becomes tail heavy – increasingly heavy as speed increases."

So, if the speeds these souped up P-51's were traveling at was similar to what a service plane would do in a dive, there would be trim dialed in for a tail heavy condition.

 

[jimh]

One of the first things changed on a racing Mustang is the wing and tail incidence. Simply put the angle of incidence is the fixed angle at which the wing and tail are mounted to the fuselage. On a stock airplane the angle is optimised to give best cruise performance. As stated, when speed increases the amount of trim becomes greater to maintain level flight. The Mustang, and T-6 for that matter, are very trim sensitive. Speed and power changes require retrimming. On the racing Mustangs the incidence is adjusted to obtain a high speed trim-free profile. Any time a trim tab is moved it creates a drag penalty which is unacceptable in the racing environment. Who am I to spout off? I instruct in T-6's and I fly P-51C Betty Jane for CF.

jim

 

[GregP]

Not to throw gas on a fire, but I saw at least one photo that depicts "oil canning" of the fuselage between the leading edge of the stab and the trailing edge of the wing. I also heard at least one person in the pits, immediately after the crash, say that they thought the rear fuselage was out of line with the wings after about pylon 8.

So, it makes me wonder if there was an internal failure of perhaps a longeron or the boil-off system, precipitating the loss of a portion of the the trim tab and the tailwheel extension. I have also heard that the tailwheel may have extended all the way back about the middle of the valley of speed. That comes from a person at Chino with a LOT of warbird experience and a history at Reno going back more than 20 years (not Steve Hinton).

Please note, this is not a "pet theory," it is a speculation that some slightly earlier event may have caused both the tailwheel extension and the loss of the trim tab piece ... it did not lose the whole trim tab. If it were not for the "oil canning" of the fuselage in the pic, I would not suspect anything other than a simple trim tab failure. However, there MAY be more to it. I'd bet if so, it will come out in the investigation.

I wonder how long it will take to get some more information than we all have at this point, and I state categorically here that the theory above is NOT something I claim happened, only one possible explanation of events leading up to both the tab failure and the tailwheel exension ... if the oil canning of the fuselage turns out to be real and not just a digital pic anomaly. I will not speculate about the pic ... since I saw it on the web, I'm sure the NYSB has it, too. if they do, they can draw their own conclusions. I simply have never before seen a P-51's rear fuselage wrinkle in flight like this pic appears to show.

I spoke with Stu Dawson the morning after the crash, and he said Galloping Ghost was pushing him uncharacteristically hard into pylons 7 and 8. That is, the Ghost got closer to Rare Bear than it should have, and kept coming until the pull-up happened. Stu postulated there was something wrong with the Ghost even going into pylon 7, maybe pylon 6. If there is anyone who would know, it would be Stu. You may recall that Stu is the pilot who qualifies other pilots to fly in unlimited class racing.

So, this event may have a root cause that occurred back going into or through the valley of speed, and it toook 5 - 8 seconds for the effects to precipitate and catch up with the aircraft. I do not claim it is so, but it is possible given the bits of info I have heard from credible sources. I'm fairly sure the NTSB will hear or has heard all this themselves. Surely they interviewed Stu Dawson ... he was flying right next to The Galloping Ghost when the event happened!

That's the last speculation I will post until we hear definitively from the NTSB or from another credible source, and I hope we all find out the real scoop in the near future.

Glad to hear from the photographer and glad he is now a forum member. Good attutude by the members and moderators, too. I MUCH prefer reasonable discussion to the alternative.

Keep 'em flying!

 

[barney]

One of the first things changed on a racing Mustang is the wing and tail incidence. Simply put the angle of incidence is the fixed angle at which the wing and tail are mounted to the fuselage. On a stock airplane the angle is optimised to give best cruise performance. As stated, when speed increases the amount of trim becomes greater to maintain level flight. The Mustang, and T-6 for that matter, are very trim sensitive. Speed and power changes require retrimming. On the racing Mustangs the incidence is adjusted to obtain a high speed trim-free profile. Any time a trim tab is moved it creates a drag penalty which is unacceptable in the racing environment. Who am I to spout off? I instruct in T-6's and I fly P-51C Betty Jane for CF.

jim

This is becoming too much to expect. We've had an engineer who worked on the plane, the photographer who took the now famous pictures, and now, another expert is here to set me straight. I had no idea these planes were rebuilt to the extent of changing the wing incidence! So, while this remains a tragedy, we are provided with the opportunity of reading comments from true experts. I want this all of the time.

Thanks Jim

 

[evangilder]

Greg, I have heard speculation of the boil off as well, But am not nearly as knowledgeable of these aircraft as those who work on them. One thing I did notice was that in the inverted picture, there appears to be something coming out of the aircraft, team or smoke, from the underside. That might lend credence to the boil-off system, but I defer to the experts on that and on the NTSB.

 

[GregP]

The boil-off system was two-fold.

First, it cools the engine by transferring heat from the coolant to the boil-off liquid. Second, it cools the oil in the same manner, but a separate system since you can't mix them.

Most cooling systems are not under a lot of pressure, but this one was under at least medium pressure due to steam generation.

There have been several boil-off system failures in the past. When it happens, unless the cockpit is sealed, the pilot is engulfed in 1500° steam and is incapacitated or killed. I don't have first-hand knowldege of the Galloping Ghost systems, but the boil-off is the logical fail point if, indeed anything at all failed in the fuselage. Perhaps not. If the Oxygen system had failed, there would have been a big hole in the side and tail would probably have departed the rest of the aircraft.

Nothing may have blown internally ... it COULD be simple trim tab failure, but some of the pics suggest sheet metal buckling that was not present in any earlier pohots at Reno under race power.

Might be nothing and I think maybe I should have just waited to see what is eventually found to be the cause of the crash.

As someone in here said, I had the right to remain silent, but not the ability ... beat me, make me fell cheap. I'll stop speculating and wait for the report.

Cheers!

 

[WJPearce]

I'm torn here between keeping my mouth shut versus trying to keep things on the tracks. For now I will just mention a few things, then shut up.

1) I was not involved with this aircraft or team in any way. But I do have the highest level of respect for Leeward and his crew.

2) In case some don't know, Stu Dawson was flying Rare Bear which was behind the Ghost after Leeward passed him at the end of the second lap.

3) The boil off system had an exhaust port by the trailing edge of the left wing. Seeing the occasional puff of steam from that region was normal.

4) If the boil off system blew, I think the canopy would have been fogged/steamed over, which it appears (to me) to be perfectly clear.

5) Oil canning was visible on the right side mainly around the second "7" on the race number "177." Photo below is by Florin (circle too) on lap 2, 1 lap before the loss of control. Other photos (mine) show oil canning was present on 9/13 during qualifying.

6) Photos and video indicate the gear came out on the front stretch. The first indication of trouble was when the a/c quickly rolls into about 100+ degrees of left bank and about simultaneously the tail wheel comes out. Video is by Jason Schillereff and it does not show the end because Jason is a good guy. Last 1/2 lap of the Ghost is shown starting about 7:05. The incident begins at 7:36.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoncG_j5AdI

I vowed that I would not post anything about this but I feel it is important to show what is out there to keep speculation to a minimum. I will see how I feel about this tomorrow because I don't want to be one who sensationalizes this tragedy. Air Racers, pilots, crew, photogs, fans.... I see them every year and we are all like family. This all hurts and I never want to do anything to add fuel to any fire of speculation.

I know nothing and I'm a nobody!

WJPearce

 

[GregP]

Well Mr. Pierce, I had not seen that clip. This is definitely the best quality video of the event I have seen, and I didn't need to see the end either. Seeing it live was one time too many.

Can I ask if the person who filmed this sent a copy to the NTSB?

From the perspective of that film clip, I can come up with a very good working theory privately ... probably any pilot can. I shall not speculate publically ... the NTSB can do that.

Thanks for the link and the words above.

 

[Njaco]

Like Eric, I too, want to offer that I was wrong on the pic. Eric had valid points which I agreed with but when you have the source, that trumps all. And everyone's sentiments about where the focus of this tragedy should be are spot on. To all the family and friends, heartfelt prayers.