Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine

[stona]

As long as new generations replace old generations....
history will keep repeating itself.

History doesn't repeat itself. We repeat history.

There is no military option. Forget it. The will to impose any kind of political or economic sanctions doesn't exist. EU officials are still working on the list I mentioned days ago. Where will the will for any kind of military response come from?

Having the Ukrainians and the Russians kicking **** out of each other might not be such a bad thing for us anyway. War is an expensive thing and we might be able to force some nice deals for the fuels we need from that part of the world a little later on. Don't forget that the Russian economy is comparable in size to Italy's, about 12% the size of the US or the EU.

Since nuclear weapons were first owned by two antagonists there has NEVER been a military conflict between nuclear armed powers. Even India and Pakistan have called a halt to their wars, preferring to finance various unsavoury organisations to wage a petty cross border conflict.

The only reason nuclear weapons were ever mooted during the Korean conflict was because, at that time, China didn't have them. Arguments about MacArthur's sanity (and that of Truman and Dean for that matter) belong elsewhere

Cheers

Steve

 

[Lucky13]

To me, throughout history, more often than not, the Russian people, have been at the short end of the stick and have suffered one despotic leader after another with their big headed egos....Putin is no different....they don't need this and they definitely don't deserve it...

Nobody does!

 

[vikingBerserker]

A-Fricken-Men!

 

[parsifal]

There is no military option. Forget it.

I disagree. ther is an option, and its happening as we speak. the Ukraininans are battling the Russian insurgents as we speak. That option on its own wont deliver the full solution. the ukraininans need support...money, training and equipment, plus they need us to act decisivley with regard to sanctions on the Russians. This is looking like a reerse Vietnam to me, only we are backing the popular regime this time. If the Europeans b*gger this up by not doing as they should, it will be shame on the EU....

The will to impose any kind of political or economic sanctions doesn't exist. EU officials are still working on the list I mentioned days ago. Where will the will for any kind of military response come from?

My fear is that you are right. my hope is that the Europeans will have the gumption to act decisively and impose sanctions with some real bite to them. ive heard they are intending to do something that moves toward that but i dont think it has happened just yet.

Having the Ukrainians and the Russians kicking **** out of each other might not be such a bad thing for us anyway. War is an expensive thing and we might be able to force some nice deals for the fuels we need from that part of the world a little later on. Don't forget that the Russian economy is comparable in size to Italy's, about 12% the size of the US or the EU.

Economy - Might be, depending on how you are measuring that. but their GDP for 2014 was 2309 Billion US Dollars (? Russia - Gross domestic product (GDP) 2014 | Statistic) compared to just over 2 billiuon for the italians. But italy is shrinking by about 1.9% per year, compared to a corresponding growth in the russian economy. Russian economy 10 years ago was a quater of what it is today.

Since nuclear weapons were first owned by two antagonists there has NEVER been a military conflict between nuclear armed powers. Even India and Pakistan have called a halt to their wars, preferring to finance various unsavoury organisations to wage a petty cross border conflict.

Not directly, but starting with Vietnam there have been numerous conflicts between the proxies of those nuclear club members. In this case, the proxies are the Ukraine and the separatists, but dangerously the russians appear to have a direct involvement as well. Suppose that is a parrallel to vietnam

 

[at6]

Unfortunately, the fighting prevents searching for the rest of the remains of the passengers. That in essence means that the grieving relatives are held hostage in the process.

 

[GrauGeist]

Unfortunately, the fighting prevents searching for the rest of the remains of the passengers. That in essence means that the grieving relatives are held hostage in the process.

The Ukrainian military has secured the area and there are international personnel at the site

 

[Marcel]

Yes, finally and way too late.
Dutch investigators reported they had found and secured "remains". No full bodies, but it's at least something. We've got 40 militairy police on the site with probably, more coming.

Yesterday I drove over the A2. That's the road that was taken by the convoy. Flowers were still hanging from the bridges.

 

[michaelmaltby]

Repeating history ...

 

[Hartmann52]

Marcel, Experts are still working? Your press mention any pre-release version?

 

[Marcel]

Marcel, Experts are still working? Your press mention any pre-release version?

Yes, today they got to work again. They have set up camp at Soledar and went to the spot again this morning. They have been shot at, but it's not really dangerous at the moment, according to the leader. Several bodyparts have been found, which have been brought tho Charkov. They'll probably be flown in here tomorrow, so we'll have another convoy and ceremony. Main focus of the research team is still recovering human remains and personal belongings. They at least want to have that finished before it becomes too dangerous again. Investigation into what really happened is of seconday priority at the moment. Anayway, my government will be very carefull with any information until the main priority has been completed. We're at the mercy of both rebels and Ukrain government right now and it doesn't make sense to anger any of them for now.

 

[swampyankee]

Getting a crash site secured promptly in an area without an active war going on is bad enough: anyone who has ever been involved in an accident investigation had heard horror stories of first-responders, even in the US, arriving well after souvenir hunters. One type of souvenir that tended to be hunted was body parts. Local police have gotten much better at securing crash sites, probably because of the general increasing professionalization of local police forces.

 

[GrauGeist]

One of the first things that came to my mind, when I read about the cellphones being taken right after the crash, was that there would have most likely been evidence that the rebels wouldn't want recovered.

Considering the time between the missile's contact and the aircraft's impact, someone onboard may have recorded a video of the tragic event as it was happening.

 

[Marcel]

Yesterday 1 coffin was flown in with remains found since last Friday. Probably parts of several humans. Same ceremony and was brought to Hilversum for identification. The indentification is a slow process. Only 2 people have been identified sofar.
A preliminary report about the cause will be published next week. Don't expect anything spectacular the team will keep their info until the investigation has been completed.

 

[GrauGeist]

Thanks for the update, Marcel

 

[Lefa]

elenafilatova.com

Interesting page, and personality.
I've been following his sides for a long time, until the chernobyl accident

 

[Marcel]

Sorry, too fast

 

[Lefa]

f#ck of, spammer

????
What was that is Spamming?

There: http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/kiddofspeed/maydan/updatejuly19.html

The whole page is interesting, and deals with the situation ugrainan the latest updates.

 

[Marcel]

????
What was that is Spamming?

There: http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/kiddofspeed/maydan/updatejuly19.html

The whole page is interesting, and deals with the situation ugrainan the latest updates.

Sorry, got a spam alert. Didn't dare to check the link. changed my answer, sorry.

 

[michaelmaltby]

Lefa ... thank you for that terrific website .... very insightful on Ukraine and Chernobyl

 

[Marcel]

The mission in the Ukrain has been suspended because it's too dangerous to work there. Last few days no bodyparts have been found. It's not clear when the mission will start again. A small group will stay behind