Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine

[michaelmaltby]

"...When it comes to the Frau Ribbentrop-Merkel and other politicians who like Putin?"

I agree that this is state-sponsored Terrorism and we need to call it for what it is .... but .... Putin has done his 'cause' more harm than good ... the deleted tweets and posts that can't be deleted because they were captured tell the real story. F*ck you hooliganism by cocky Putin-supported ethnic Russians ... coal miners ... that's the instrument of Mr. KGB's foreign policy ..... huge miscalculation, IMHO.

But don't be too hard on Frau Merkel, H, she knows she's walking a tight rope on moral credibility on this .... but that's the price one pays for having a bully as your gas/energy DEALER ... . You guys in Ukraine are blessed with an abundance of tight oil and gas .... are you fracking it? Get started. Independence, my friend, is the cornerstone of geo-political courage

 

[Hartmann52]

michaelmaltby, granted, the path to true independence is never simple. In history there are many examples of this. This we shall now try to understand, but the price for this understanding is too high ...

 

[vikingBerserker]

Stealing the bodies of the victims just makes them look even more guiltier. What a bunch of <bleeping> thugs.

 

[Hartmann52]

Stealing the bodies of the victims just makes them look even more guiltier. What a bunch of <bleeping> thugs.

Them in this situation has nothing to lose

 

[Marcel]

But we do. I'm sorry for your country, Hartmann having to deal with these terrorists. Good luck with that.
Hope somebody will step in and solve this particular case. We have a couple of thousands mourning Dutchmen, Australians and other non-involved citizens waiting for their loved ones to go home. That's not a political statement, but an emotional fact. These bodies are no tools for freakin "idependance fighters" nor for Russian dictators to use in their stupid politics.

And in this situation those guys have everything to loose. If they immediately would have said "I'm sorry we made a mistake" and then fully cooperate with the international teams, then they would have gotten some credit. Now they loose the last piece of sympathy they had in the international world.

 

[Hiromachi]

When Europe already understand that Putin's Russia - evil?
How many more people must die, that European leaders realized that this evil must be fought?
When it comes to the Frau Ribbentrop-Merkel and other politicians who like Putin?

It's not about being good or evil, but politics and economy. EU (particularly Germany and France) needs Russia since they can provide natural resources so needed for western industry. So making any harsh moves may cut those supplies and hit directly the politicians, they would be the ones responsible for another recession. Besides, Germany for 2 decades are working on close partnership with Russia.

As you can see Ukraine is in a pretty bad position since it doesnt have anything EU needs, yet brings more problems. And good excuse for western politicians is that Всеукраїнське об'єднання «Свобода» is very nationalist, in some respects openly admits their relation to Українська Повстанська Армія and is not ashamed of amount of massacres they did, even proud of it.


Only shame that even death of civilians, of tourists and kids is still not enough to take some action.

 

[Hartmann52]

Marcel, thank you. I believe that in the end the truth will be behind us.
And the more grief for me as far back as 2012 we lived in Kharkov fans Netherlands national football team. And we love these fun, kind and open people.
That's for two years, all the world has changed...

 

[Hartmann52]

Hiromachi, I think so (sorry if my opinion is not the same as yours): every country has the political organizations of the extreme right there pushing them in Poland, which, incidentally, there is the birthplace of my ancestors. And they also dream of restoring Rzeczpospolita "from sea to sea." I professor of history at the University of Ukraine police. And even I, with my training, I can not assess the many events of the 20th century.
Especially, now the question is - if we forget all past grievances, to resist in the face of common aggressor. A okkkupirovav Ukraine, Putin will not stop.
Draw your own conclusions ...

 

[GrauGeist]

An interesting video was shared with me that shows the Russian news reporting on the rebels "downing a Ukrainian An-26 military transport" and then a little while later, the SAME news anchor reports an entirely different situation, where it was now a civilian jet downed by the Ukrainian military. The video has English subtitles, by the way.

I mean, seriously, how stupid do they think people are?


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjUpRD6yMYg

 

[Hartmann52]

GrauGeist, Russian - they are .... They have seven Fridays of the week ...

 

[nuuumannn]

I mean, seriously, how stupid do they think people are?

Potemkin Village; The Russian government wants you to believe what it wants you to believe.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The more I watch this, the more sick I become. The separatists that control the site should be ashamed of themselves. Not just because they just killed almost 300 innocent lives but because of their treatment of the bodies. I am appalled. They are looting the valuables that rightfully belongs to the families of the victims. They allowed the remains to rot in the summer heat.

The people responsible for this, no matter how high it goes should hang.

 

[Lucky13]

Hanging is too good for them, they should be lynched and then some.....

Stay safe and sound Hartmann!

 

[vikingBerserker]

A-Fricken-Men!

 

[Lucky13]

Well, you've got to agree, there isn't much of a difference, is there....easy mistake to make...(sarcasm)...

 

[Marcel]

Finally, Dutch forensic researches are now at the spot where the bodies are. It's a cooled train in Torez. Hopefully they'll be able to get them out of there and bring them home.

Problem is now that it seems the Ukraine government is trying to retake Torez, so there's a lot of fighting going on. This is from the rebels, but the fact that the government doesn't want to comment is telling. Seems like both parties are not free of having their own political agenda. I'm voting for stationing a couple of Dutch Marines there to guard the bodies, but who am I?

 

[Hartmann52]

Slightly off the right information - Ukraine provided the train for transportation of the victims, but the terrorists do not allow him to his destination.

 

[stona]

I'm voting for stationing a couple of Dutch Marines there to guard the bodies, but who am I?

They'd have to do a better job than at Srebrenica.

More seriously it is an appalling atrocity and now, inevitably, the victims are being used as pawns in an unpleasant political game. Whoever was responsible, be it the Russian backed factions and ultimately Putin or the Kiev government, the one thing you can be sure of is that nobody will be brought to book for this outrage.

I just feel desperately sorry for the victims and their loved ones.

Steve

Steve

 

[Marcel]

Those were not marines. And I'm not talking a VN force here. I'll not start a discussion on Sebrenica, which is much more complex than people imagine.
But I'm of course not serious about the marines, way to sensitive.

 

[drgondog]

Here is a post of the shoot down that the Ukraine 'Separatists" weren't able to yank in time.. Several sources leaked from CIA state that a.) SA 11 launched from within the 'Separatist' MLR, b.) SIGINT conversation between Russian Colonel and Strelkov diuscussing the identity and possibility of 'grave mistake' minutes after the 777 crashed.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaQzMv89eeo

Looks to me like the first couple frames show right engine/nacelle falling while the 777 maintains level wings - but fire is spreading while pilot is still controlling in descent - then last segment near tree coverage seems to indicate wing fell off before the pilot could get it on the ground.

Putin can rant all he wants but his hand caught in the cookie jar removing all significant evidence plus major structure such as the right wing and engine (probably a couple of miles away from crash site). The EU won't escalate the sanctions and Obama doesn't have the stones to cut off US Financial markets from ALL Russian economic sectors.