Spitfire Mk.22 vs. Fw 190D-13

[CORSNING]

The following quote I found on www.lufwaff-experten.org (http://www.luftwaff-experten.org) :

" The 2240 PS maximum output that is often quoted for the Jumo213A with MW 50 is a bit
of a mystery. My collection of reports from Junkers that date up to the end of the war, never
mention a 2240 PS setting. According to Junkers and Focke-Wulf documents the 2100 PS
SEP was the maximum output for all production D-9s that entered service during WW2."

They had been conversing with Dietmar Hermann. This quote was implied to be his.

I Checked in his book "Long-nose" and Dietmar states on page 153 that the maximum
output of the Jumo 213F was 2,100 PS....(2,071 hp.)

 

[Koopernic]

It s the 1st time that i read the jumo 213 f at 2250 ps. I know 2050 ps, the same as jumo 213e.
We should remember that jumo 213 s frequently failed to deliver their promised performance.
Also , most if not all operational d aircrafts ,were built lacking several futures of their design. E.g tje rubber sealing for the engine gap, and decent surface quality. Personally, i doubt that any operational d9 could achieve 700km/h. Although we have reports that individual aircraft were very fast.
Additional the d series was a flawed design. The requirement for the "power egg" , meant extra weight ,not only in the engine installation, but also in the extensions that were required to keep cog. Also the connection between the power egg and the fuselage was terrible resulting in massive speed loss. The 13mm nose guns caused a lot of drag for little hitting power. The take off weight in the later d series was approaching 4500kgr, but still used the same small wing of the Fw190A6, with its elastic deformation at high speed turns. The original tail surfaces were inadequate to handle the more powerful engines. More and more armor and equipment lead to poor power and wing loadings. The annular radiator was a good idea, but poorly executed at least on the d9 model. And of course the ta 152h had the disastrous shortcoming of the low g limit of its wings.

Why would you think that the Jumo 213A, Jumo 213E, Jumo 213E1, Jumo 213F and Jumo 213EB all had the same 2050hp performance? They all had different supercharger arrangements and emergency power systems, compression ratios and or fuel grades.

There are photographs of Fw 190D9 with Ta 152 tails (to handle the additional power) that the nice thing about basing the Ta 152 on the Fw 190 it could feed back improvements.

Most Fw 190D9 had one of the two types of MW50 system by December 1944.

The engine gap problem was caused by two things, 1 tolerances in construction and 2 lack of supply of rubber strips to seal the engine gaps (front and rear) in the absence of well good build tolerances. There were simply aircraft with good tolerances since the Luftwaffe had rejected the rubber engine seal gap solution and wanted proper build tolerances.

Its fairly clear that the Fw 190D9, which was based on the Fw 190A9 wing was being strengthened since wing fuel tanks were being fitted to the Fw 190D13 EB. There seems to have been a plan to increase Fa 190A10 wing area and its likely this wing might have found itself onto the Fw 190D if it persisted.

Jumo 213A (single stage 2 speed supercharger) was the basic bomber engine pressed into service as a fighter engine. It had single stage super charger. In order to increase the power as a fighter it had an increased boost setting installed.
It was a rich mixture setting that raised power from 1750hp->1900hp.
This was followed by a system that used supercharger pressure to pressurise the MW50 tank and blew in MW50 to increase power fruther.
This was followed by mechanical pump that provided the MW50 the power of this unit was usually regarded as 2100hp

The difference between a Me 109G6AM and Me 109G14 as well G6ASM and G14AS was that the G14 had mechanical pump driven MW50 injection.

Dieter Hermann and Anthony Kay both mention that early Jumo 213A had trouble reaching their full power due to supercharger impellor weakness and not achieving the required boost pressure. These versions were not used in combat but were used in evaluation squadrons.

Jumo 213AG (single stage 2 speed supercharger) this unit unit had the single stage two speed supercharger optimised as "boddenladder" ie supercharger to increase power not compensate for speed. This unit achieved 2250hp, nevertheless it had good performance at all altitudes. This unit is associated with the 2240hp often mentioned.

Jumo 213E (two stage intercooled 3 speed supercharger) never saw service as the engine was optimised for C3 fuel and the anticipated shortages of C3 fuel forced the development of the Jumo 213E1, however a version of the Jumo 213E known as the Jumo 213F without the sizeable intercooler (probably housing cooling only)

Jumo 213E1 (two stage intercooled 3 speed supercharger) which could use B4 fuel + MW50 + GM1. Used on Ta 152H and some Ju 88G7, Ju 88S3 and Ju 388 (test)

Jumo 213F (two stage non intercooled 3 speed supercharger) and interim version for the fw 190D13 Used on Fw 190D13. I believe had higher Compression Ratio but required C3 fuel to achieve same power as Jumo 213E1 due to minimal intercooling.

Jumo 213F1 (two stage non intercooled 3 speed supercharger) used a pump to inject MW50 instead of the less reliable supercharger pressurisation test flown on Fw 190D11 and intended for Fw 190D13.

Jumo 213EB (two stage intercooled 3 speed supercharger with a new radiator and intercooler system) intended for both the Fw 190D13 EB and the Ta 152H EB with about 2350hp and very high full throttle altitude.

Ju 213J about 2650hp at 3700 rpm, used 4 valve head, on test bench.

Ju 213S armoured variant for ground attack aircraft.

 

[Koopernic]

The following quote I found on www.lufwaff-experten.org (http://www.luftwaff-experten.org) :

" The 2240 PS maximum output that is often quoted for the Jumo213A with MW 50 is a bit
of a mystery. My collection of reports from Junkers that date up to the end of the war, never
mention a 2240 PS setting. According to Junkers and Focke-Wulf documents the 2100 PS
SEP was the maximum output for all production D-9s that entered service during WW2."

They had been conversing with Dietmar Hermann. This quote was implied to be his.

I Checked in his book "Long-nose" and Dietmar states on page 153 that the maximum
output of the Jumo 213F was 2,100 PS....(2,071 hp.)

Seems to be a Jumo 213AG with a boddenladder ie supercharger set to provide optimal low altitude power.

 

[dedalos]

Why would you think that the Jumo 213A, Jumo 213E, Jumo 213E1, Jumo 213F and Jumo 213EB all had the same 2050hp performance? They all had different supercharger arrangements and emergency power systems, compression ratios and or fuel grades.

There are photographs of Fw 190D9 with Ta 152 tails (to handle the additional power) that the nice thing about basing the Ta 152 on the Fw 190 it could feed back improvements.

The engine gap problem was caused by two things, 1 tolerances in construction and 2 lack of supply of rubber strips to seal the engine gaps (front and rear) in the absence of well good build tolerances. There were simply aircraft with good tolerances since the Luftwaffe had rejected the rubber engine seal gap solution and wanted proper build tolerances.

Its fairly clear that the Fw 190D9, which was based on the Fw 190A9 wing was being strengthened since wing fuel tanks were being fitted to the Fw 190D13 EB. There seems to have been a plan to increase Fa 190A10 wing area and its likely this wing might have found itself onto the Fw 190D if it persisted.

Jumo 213A (single stage 2 speed supercharger) was the basic bomber engine pressed into service as a fighter engine. It had single stage super charger. In order to increase the power as a fighter it had an increased boost setting installed.
It was a rich mixture setting that raised power from 1750hp->1900hp.
This was followed by a system that used supercharger pressure to pressurise the MW50 tank and blew in MW50 to increase power fruther.
This was followed by mechanical pump that provided the MW50 the power of this unit was usually regarded as 2100hp

The difference between a Me 109G6AM and Me 109G14 as well G6ASM and G14AS was that the G14 had mechanical pump driven MW50 injection.

Dieter Hermann and Anthony Kay both mention that early Jumo 213A had trouble reaching their full power due to supercharger impellor weakness and not achieving the required boost pressure. These versions were not used in combat but were used in evaluation squadrons.

Jumo 213AG (single stage 2 speed supercharger) this unit unit had the single stage two speed supercharger optimised as "boddenladder" ie supercharger to increase power not compensate for speed. This unit achieved 2250hp, nevertheless it had good performance at all altitudes. This unit is associated with the 2240hp often mentioned.

Jumo 213E (two stage intercooled 3 speed supercharger) never saw service as the engine was optimised for C3 fuel and the anticipated shortages of C3 fuel forced the development of the Jumo 213E1, however a version of the Jumo 213E known as the Jumo 213F without the sizeable intercooler (probably housing cooling only)

Jumo 213E1 (two stage intercooled 3 speed supercharger) which could use B4 fuel + MW50 + GM1. Used on Ta 152H and some Ju 88G7, Ju 88S3 and Ju 388 (test)

Jumo 213F (two stage non intercooled 3 speed supercharger) and interim version for the fw 190D13 Used on Fw 190D13. I believe had higher Compression Ratio.

Jumo 213EB (two stage intercooled 3 speed supercharger with a new radiator and intercooler system) intended for both the Fw 190D13 EB and the Ta 152H EB with about 2350hp and very high full throttle altitude.

Ju 213J about 2650hp at 3700 rpm, used 4 valve head

Ju 213S armoured variant for ground attack aircraft.

I have no doubt that if the D series could be built with all the futures and improvements that it s consrtuctor intended would be a very decent late war fighter. Historically, due the war situation, as built , offered only mediocre improvement in comparison with the A8 series.
The jumo 213 f, should offer somewhat lower take off power than the jumo 213 a due the additional load of the 2 stage supercharger.

 

[spicmart]

These might be of interest:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/Performance_Data_on_Fighter_Aircraft.pdf

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/P-51D_roll.jpg

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-38/p-38e-rolling-velocities.jpg

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-38/p-38j-roll.jpg

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/naca868-rollchart.jpg

Probably more to be found at WWII Aircraft Performance

Of which Fw 190 (version) tested is the graph in the NACA868 rollchart?

Dear Corsing,

The Fw 190D9 had two different MW50 systems. The first one used supercharger pressure to blow in MW50 and that was referred to as the Oldenburg system it was retrofitted by Luftwaffe personnel. This is the system that achieved 427mph. In December a new system came into use that used a mechanical pump for much greater flow and vaporisation. This one achieved 434-437 mph. It has to be installed in the factory or in the field by Junkers personnel. This is very good performance at low altitude for an aircraft with only a single stage supercharger that essentially was a left over engine from Ju 188 production. Versions which used pure C3 fuel were am little faster than B4+MW50 and a version with the first stage supercharger optimised purely for low level flight was very fast at sea level.

In due course the Jumo 213A probably would have been released for 2.0 ATA boost on C3+MW50 which correspond to about the same power as the Jumo 213EB. This aircraft would have had very good speed and climb at low alttude.

How much power a Jumo 213A with 2.0 ATA boost on C3+MW50?

The Fw 190D series would thus become ground attack aircraft while the Ta 152 specialised in fighter to fighter combat. There were plans to equip the Fw 190D with the TSA 2D toss bombing sight. Their small wings giving the Fw 190D great speed but not so much manoeuvrability and climb. The Fw 190D13 EB was clearly faster than a Spitfire F.22 by 20mph. The real competitor for the Spitfire F.22 is the Ta 152 B and H series with its larger wings.

I'd rather think that the Doras with their smaller airframe and better power-to-weight ratio (performance) compared to the Ta 152 would make it more agile to better combat enemy fighters.

How many of these engines were actually installed in production a/c?

Griffon engines got 25lb boost, an increase from the standard 21lb boost,.

Jumo 213EB Seems to have flown on test with Ta 152H1 because speed charts abound.

Are those charts to be seen somewhere?

Jumo 213EB (two stage intercooled 3 speed supercharger with a new radiator and intercooler system) intended for both the Fw 190D13 EB and the Ta 152H EB with about 2350hp and very high full throttle altitude.

Did the Ta 152EB have the same radiator as B/C/H?

The "A-Motor mit Bodenlader" and its 2240/2250 PS. Did it deliver better performance stats than the ones that are commonly associated with the Fw 190D-9? If so does anybody know?

 

[Milosh]

Its fairly clear that the Fw 190D9, which was based on the Fw 190A9 wing was being strengthened since wing fuel tanks were being fitted to the Fw 190D13 EB.

The A-9 was an A-8 with a more powerful engine. The D-9 used the A-8 wing.

 

[CORSNING]

Dear Corsing,

The Fw 190D9 had two different MW50 systems. The first one used supercharger pressure to blow in MW50 and that was referred to as the Oldenburg system it was retrofitted by Luftwaffe personnel. This is the system that achieved 427mph. In December a new system came into use that used a mechanical pump for much greater flow and vaporisation. This one achieved 434-437 mph. It has to be installed in the factory or in the field by Junkers personnel. This is very good performance at low altitude for an aircraft with only a single stage supercharger that essentially was a left over engine from Ju 188 production. Versions which used pure C3 fuel were am little faster than B4+MW50 and a version with the first stage supercharger optimised purely for low level flight was very fast at sea level.

Koopernic,
What is your source for this information. I have surfed the web and my growing library
but have not come across this information yet. This information would be excellent
to add to the aircraft performance library I am entering on excel.
I have checked the following books to date.
Longnose by Deitmar Hermann
German Combat Planes by Ray Wagner & Heinz Nowarra
Warplanes of the Third Reich by William Green
Monogram Close-Up 10 Fw 190D by J. Richard Smith & Eddie J. Creek
Profile Publications No.94 'The Focke-Wulf Fw 190D/Ta 152 by Richard Smith

Thanks ahead of time, Jeff

 

[VA5124]

if the p51h would have made service it would walked both of them

 

[tomo pauk]

if the p51h would have made service it would walked both of them

If only the P-51H is a topic here.

 

[SpicyJuan11]

if the p51h would have made service it would walked both of them

[Citation Needed]

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Reading before you write is usually a good idea.

 

[SpicyJuan11]

Reading before you write is usually a good idea.

?

 

[CORSNING]

Of which Fw 190 (version) tested is the graph in the NACA868 rollchart?
You know, I use to know for a fact...? But now I believe it was either an Fw 190A-4
or Fw 190A-5/U4.



How much power a Jumo 213A with 2.0 ATA boost on C3+MW50?
The Jumo 213A in the Fw 190 D-9 used only B4 with and without MW 50 in combat.
However I believe that the 2,240 ps that is often quoted may be from the testing
that was done using C3 fuel and higher boosting in the Jumo 213A.




I'd rather think that the Doras with their smaller airframe and better power-to-weight ratio (performance) compared to the Ta 152 would make it more agile to better combat enemy fighters.
The Dora did have a quicker initial roll rate allowing it to get into a banked turn faster.




Are those charts to be seen somewhere?

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/fw190-a8-3jan45.jpg


Did the Ta 152EB have the same radiator as B/C/H?

The "A-Motor mit Bodenlader" and its 2240/2250 PS. Did it deliver better performance stats than the ones that are commonly associated with the Fw 190D-9? If so does anybody know?

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/leistungsdaten-1-10-44.jpg


Once again, I am aware of the low pressure MW 50 Oldenburg System that was
initially installed into many of the Fw 190D-9s. I am not aware of any other MW
50 system used operationally in the Fw 190D-9 as Koopernic suggested earlier.

But I'm all ears if someone has information.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

?

The topic is Spit 22 and 190 D-13, not "if the P-51H were available". That's the kind of post that sets off the flag-wavers, too.

 

[Husky]

How, do you think, would the respective pinnacles of the Spitfire and Fw 190 compare to each? Which would have, if ever, the upper hand in a dogfight? Always thought the D-13 could take on any allied fighter on equal terms. I know one should take game simulations
with a grain of salt but in World of Warplanes the Spitfire Mk.22 is THE late war dogfighter, outperforming most other fighters in every department except in speed, even outrolling the Fw 190D-9 at higher speed. The only advantage the Fw 190D-13 has is its roll rate due to boosted ailerons.There it is said that the only means to achieve parity is to install the Jumo 213 EB. What do you think about it?

Can not even use World of Warplanes as a bases...Not even replica in the slightest...they try to apply a hint of that (any type frame) particulars aircraft. No way represents.

 

[SpicyJuan11]

The topic is Spit 22 and 190 D-13, not "if the P-51H were available". That's the kind of post that sets off the flag-wavers, too.

Were you originally referring to me or someone else?

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Were you originally referring to me or someone else?

I was referring to the guy who said the P-51H could out-do both. It was completely irrelevant to the topic.

Probably should have kept my big trap shut.

 

[Koopernic]

if the p51h would have made service it would walked both of them

For the sake of adding a little information: The 487mph speed associated with the P-51H is not traceable to an aircraft with a tail number or an airframe serial number. It seems to be a brochure speed to promote sales of the P-51. No one has found the flight test this may have come from. The fastest a P-51H ever flew was a NAA at 482mph,. I havent seen proof of that.. This aircraft was stripped down. This usually means no aerials, no bomb racks, not drop tank racks and gun ports sealed over. There are published P-51 authors on this web site that might provide more info.

The F-190 series was splitting into different products: the Fw 190D series, the Ta 152H with long span wings and the Ta 152C with wins intermediate span wings. Any comparisons with late war allied super fighters such as the P-51H, Spitfire F.22, P-47M or N should consider that all three Fw/Ta would be in service and doing different duties. The Fw 190D12/D13 would have extremely good high altitude performance but it would likely not be used to dogfight Spitfire F.22 or P-51 at high altitude. The fact that it was to receive the TSA2D toss bombing sight tells us what it would have been used for. The small wings would give it high speed at low altitude.

The Jumo 213EB engine differed in that the 'radiator', intercooler, engine cooling and oil cooling were integrated in a compact unit. The Jumo 213EB could thus replace the Jumo 213E1 on the Fw Ta 152H1 and also the Jumo 213F1 on the Fw 190D12 and D13. The Ta 152H with this engine is shown on charts being capable of 474mph and on the same chart the Fw 190D12 with the EB engine is shows as doing over 478mph. (its actually of the chart).

The Fw 190D12/D13 R25 apart from the EB engine had bag type tanks in the wings that were to give it a range of 1700km (1080 miles).

I don't think any of these aircraft would have been easy targets for any allied super fighter.

 

[Koopernic]

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/leistungsdaten-1-10-44.jpg


Once again, I am aware of the low pressure MW 50 Oldenburg System that was
initially installed into many of the Fw 190D-9s. I am not aware of any other MW
50 system used operationally in the Fw 190D-9 as Koopernic suggested earlier.

But I'm all ears if someone has information.

Jagdhund's website was a great source which is unfortunately only available on way back machine:

Dora (archive.org)

"An early Dora with a stock Jumo 213A, without any modifications was not much of an improvement over the the Fw190A-8 except for somewhat better high altitude performance. The first production Dora's soon received a field modification of a non-standard, low pressure, MW-50 installation "Oldenburg system" and a system referred to as "Ladedruckssteigerungs-Rüstatz" which increased power output of the Jumo 213A from 1750 to 1900PS without an additional boosting agent such as MW-50 or GM-1 up until the first of 1945 when production high pressure MW-50 kits, compressor modifications and C3 fuel were prevalent in D-9's. "

Many of the pages and references in his latter site are missing.

Note the difference between a Jumo 213F0 and Jumo 213F1 was that the F1 had a high pressure pump driven MW50 system whereas the F0 had only a supercharger blown low pressure system. Also different are that the F1 (like the E1) has a strengthened supercharger spline since 3rd gear tended to destroy the shaft when engaged on the F0 and E0 engine. Got this from Smith and Creek.

Likewise with the DB605ASM engine on the Me 109G6ASM and the latter DB605 ASB engine on the Me 109G14AS

 

[eagledad]

Gentlemen,

I saved a bit more from Jagdhund's website. For your information and discussion;

Eagledad