The WWII Ace that wasn't a Pilot

[parsifal]

Resp:
Believe what you want, but don't tell me what to believe, please! The aircraft were recorded by his unit as 'kills.' The unit gave him 'ace' status. It was their call, not someone sitting at a desk in 1960.

Im not telling you what to believe. "confirmed" kills are still just claims and claims are almost always innacxcurate.

My comments aren't directed to you. they are aimed at the people who might read your post and take them as the truth,

They aren't..

 

[Navalwarrior]

Im not telling you what to believe. "confirmed" kills are still just claims and claims are almost always innacxcurate.

My comments aren't directed to you. they are aimed at the people who might read your post and take them as the truth,

They aren't..

Resp:
Under a British listing of 'List of World War II Aces from the United Kingdom' I found the following;

Stanley B. Johnson: 11 Kills, Turret gunner on 2 seat Boulton Paul Defront fighter, piloted by P/O M.H. Young.
KIA 31 May 1940

 

[parsifal]

I cant even work out what you are getting at now.

 

[Vitamin-P]

S/Sgt. Benjamin Franklin Warmer III flew 50 missions as waist gunner on B-17s with the 348BS, 99BG. On 5-Jul-1943, the 15AAF sent three heavy bombardment groups to carpet bomb Gerbini Aerodrome. They were met by more than 100 Me-109, FW 190, and Macchi 202 fighters. The Group was awarded a PUC for the mission. Debriefing revealed that S/Sgt. Warmer had shot down 7 enemy airplanes, for which he was awarded the DSC.

Total claims by gunners of the combined groups was 45 enemy planes. An airman who had bailed out on the mission, been captured by the Italians, and subsequently escaped, reported "the Italians told us we shot down 51 of their planes in that fight."

Having read hundreds of mission reports, and dozens of individual bomber debriefing reports for each mission, I'll attest to occasionally reading gunners visually following enemy fighters all the way to the ground. Also, those debriefing reports "allowed" much fewer than half the claims of enemy planes shot down.

S/Sgt. Warmer wasn't the only bomber gunner to be awarded 7 "kills" in one mission. In China, 14AAF 308BG 374BS flight engineer/gunner T/Sgt. Arthur Benko - the Ace of Aces of WWII bomber gunners - was credited with 18 enemy aircraft on four of his missions. He was written up in Time Magazine and National Geographic. Benko was a champion competition rifleman before the war, so he knew how to lead a target. After claiming 9 aerial victories on the first two missions that were met aerial opposition, an observer was sent to accompany him. On 1-Oct-1943, he shot down 7 Japanese interceptors. He shot down another 2, two weeks later. On that mission, he and most of the crew bailed out when their B-24 lost two engines. Benko and 1st Lt. Malcolm Sanders, the bombardier, landed in a river or were captured by the Japanese, and are MIA. (In 2009, Benko was "recognized" for 7 victories in one mission with the awarding of a Silver Star).

 

[GrauGeist]

I cant even work out what you are getting at now.

Well...let's run some numbers here.

Just for the sake of discussion, let's suppose that there's a formation of 250 B-17s over Germany.
And let's suppose that flight of 250 B-17s gets jumped by German interceptors.

The attacking Germans are now facing 250 B-17s which have available, 3,000 .50 MGs.

There is a good chance that someone is going to get shot with all that defensive hardware being presented.

And there is a good chance that several of the gunners aboard those B-17s have been on a mission before and there's a real good chance that they've inflicted catastrophic damage to the attackers on more than one occasion.

So my impression is that it comes as no surprise that a lowly gunner aboard a bomber *may* have shot down a fighter more than once in spite of the complete surprise and consternation to some, who appear to feel that nary a single bullet from a bomber ever reached an attacker...

 

[parsifal]

Okay thanks for the explanation, but I still cant see how that does anything to favour that claims recorded as shoot downs are accurate. To work out actual losses, it is crucial to look at the loss records of the other side and confirm what they say to what your own side is claimimng. From the studies of this kind that have been completed for bombers (of any nation) are out by a factor of more than 8 times overclaimimg.


I see nothing in this little kicker of a side debate to move off that opinion.

 

[Navalwarrior]

S/Sgt. Benjamin Franklin Warmer III flew 50 missions as waist gunner on B-17s with the 348BS, 99BG. On 5-Jul-1943, the 15AAF sent three heavy bombardment groups to carpet bomb Gerbini Aerodrome. They were met by more than 100 Me-109, FW 190, and Macchi 202 fighters. The Group was awarded a PUC for the mission. Debriefing revealed that S/Sgt. Warmer had shot down 7 enemy airplanes, for which he was awarded the DSC.

Total claims by gunners of the combined groups was 45 enemy planes. An airman who had bailed out on the mission, been captured by the Italians, and subsequently escaped, reported "the Italians told us we shot down 51 of their planes in that fight."

Having read hundreds of mission reports, and dozens of individual bomber debriefing reports for each mission, I'll attest to occasionally reading gunners visually following enemy fighters all the way to the ground. Also, those debriefing reports "allowed" much fewer than half the claims of enemy planes shot down.

S/Sgt. Warmer wasn't the only bomber gunner to be awarded 7 "kills" in one mission. In China, 14AAF 308BG 374BS flight engineer/gunner T/Sgt. Arthur Benko - the Ace of Aces of WWII bomber gunners - was credited with 18 enemy aircraft on four of his missions. He was written up in Time Magazine and National Geographic. Benko was a champion competition rifleman before the war, so he knew how to lead a target. After claiming 9 aerial victories on the first two missions that were met aerial opposition, an observer was sent to accompany him. On 1-Oct-1943, he shot down 7 Japanese interceptors. He shot down another 2, two weeks later. On that mission, he and most of the crew bailed out when their B-24 lost two engines. Benko and 1st Lt. Malcolm Sanders, the bombardier, landed in a river or were captured by the Japanese, and are MIA. (In 2009, Benko was "recognized" for 7 victories in one mission with the awarding of a Silver Star).

Resp:
Yes, I agree . . . as I cited this very same example . . . but got push back from others. Accusing the story as unreliable, etc, etc. To me it is a piece of history, as it is in the record books.

 

[Dimlee]

Total claims by gunners of the combined groups was 45 enemy planes. An airman who had bailed out on the mission, been captured by the Italians, and subsequently escaped, reported "the Italians told us we shot down 51 of their planes in that fight."

45 or 51 fighters lost in one day at one place. It certainly should be mentioned in LW/RAI records.
Probably there are experts on this forum who have access to such records and who can comment.

 

[Navalwarrior]

45 or 51 fighters lost in one day at one place. It certainly should be mentioned in LW/RAI records.
Probably there are experts on this forum who have access to such records and who can comment.

Resp:
Interesting!

 

[Husky]

There may have been gunner 'aces'. Hard to tell, but...I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt...fog of war and all. Only the God(s) know for sure.