Where US fighters failed over Europe

[drgondog]

"The Secret Years" by Tim Mason, ISBN 0 951899 9 5, which covers Flight Testing at Boscombe 1939-1945

Looked up a copy online but it was a low quality scan making it hard to be sure of the serial numbers via the index, there were a number of Mustangs on strength over time, the index also lists 7 Thunderbolts, 3 with USAAF serials and only 1 in 1943, the rest seem to arrive July 1944 or later. The Morgan and Shacklady are Spitfire, the other types mentioned in passing, really need the A&AEE reports. Or the output of the late David Birch.

Most people use P-51 and Mustang as the generic interchangeable label for the aircraft yet P-51 is one of the few WWII USAAF designations for a production version without a trailing letter and there was no USAAF designation for the NA-73 Mustang I.

The first Farmingdale P-47D-30 was accepted on 31 August 1944, then production from mid September, Republic seems to have had a habit of building an example or two of a new version/block slightly ahead of the actual change over. Evansville began D-30 production late October.

According to the end June 1944 RAF census there were 323 Mustang I, 58 mark IA and 46 mark II and 405 mark III in Britain plus 72 III in the Mediterranean and 48 III en route. Operational units were using a mixture of all marks. No mark IV but 3 Mustang X, 1 Mustang 36 and 2 Mustang (American Type) were in Britain. First Mustang IV imports reported in September. Losses to end June 293 I, 34 IA, 4 II, 126 III, 1 X and 4 American Type.

Strictly speaking NA-73 for AAF was XP-51, 41-038 & 039. Thanks for the correction of ETO arrival date for the -30
Were the legible IDs in RAF format?

 

[Shortround6]

I have a copy of the book in question.
In the Tables at the back there are 5 Mustangs listed in Performance tests
I...........AG351...................V-1710-39.................oil cored therefore blanking plates used.
X..........AM208..................Merlin 65...................Rolls Royce modified: 4-blade propeller; combat rating for performance
II..........FR893...................V-1710-81..................Wing guns (4 0.5 in) taped over
III.........FX953....................V-1650-3...................Maximum speed at reduced RPM (2800) due to compressibility. Max speed was given as 450mph at 28,000ft
III.........FX858....................Merlin 100................Maximinum RPM thoughout; 130 octane fuel


In the Aircraft index section there are 41 Mustangs listed by serial number with arrived date, a one or two word description as to the type of test and page number for further information. However no type number or engine type is shown for these 41 planes in the list

They seem to be sorted by Serial number so AM118 shows up between AM106/G and AM130/G despite arrival dates at Boscombe Down of 17 Feb 44, 03 Apr 43 and 17 Dec 42 respectively.

If I can look up anything in this book that would be of assistance let me know.

edit correct to Mustang X from MA208 to AM208

 

[drgondog]

I have a copy of the book in question.
In the Tables at the back there are 5 Mustangs listed in Performance tests
I...........AG351...................V-1710-39.................oil cored therefore blanking plates used.
X..........MA208..................Merlin 65...................Rolls Royce modified: 4-blade propeller; combat rating for performance
II..........FR893...................V-1710-81..................Wing guns (4 0.5 in) taped over
III.........FX953....................V-1650-3...................Maximum speed at reduced RPM (2800) due to compressibility. Max speed was given as 450mph at 28,000ft
III.........FX858....................Merlin 100................Maximinum RPM thoughout; 130 octane fuel


In the Aircraft index section there are 41 Mustangs listed by serial number with arrived date, a one or two word description as to the type of test and page number for further information. However no type number or engine type is shown for these 41 planes in the list

They seem to be sorted by Serial number so AM118 shows up between AM106/G and AM130/G despite arrival dates at Boscombe Down of 17 Feb 44, 03 Apr 43 and 17 Dec 42 respectively.

If I can look up anything in this book that would be of assistance let me know.

AG 351 would have the flap in front of the intake. AM 118 was the prototype A-36, modified and tested between May 1942 and August 1942. Unlike other NA-83 it would have bomb/fuel racks with arrival in UK.

 

[Shortround6]

AG 351 would have the flap in front of the intake. AM 118 was the prototype A-36, modified and tested between May 1942 and August 1942. Unlike other NA-83 it would have bomb/fuel racks with arrival in UK.

I have no idea what it arrived with/as but in the text it just says
"Other Mustang Is were AG647 (minor radio modifications from January 1940, AM203 (briefly for speed checks in December 1942) and AM118 for the HAF."

Note in the index for AM118 after the 17 Feb 44 date just says "high altitude" ???

One wonders what high altitude for an A-36 would have been. Could be a typo or who knows what they did to it between Aug 1942 and it's arrival at Boscombe Down 1 1/2 years later.

Edit, The book shows EW998 as an A-36 that showed up in March 1943. Says they later swapped out the V-1710-F21R engine for the -R3RM version. Tests of the dive brake done.

Four Mustang IIs went through Boscombe Down, FR894 tested the GSAP gun camera and FR932 tested IFF and radio equipment for instance.

 

[Engineman]

I have a copy of the book in question.
In the Tables at the back there are 5 Mustangs listed in Performance tests
I...........AG351...................V-1710-39.................oil cored therefore blanking plates used.
X..........MA208..................Merlin 65...................Rolls Royce modified: 4-blade propeller; combat rating for performance
II..........FR893...................V-1710-81..................Wing guns (4 0.5 in) taped over
III.........FX953....................V-1650-3...................Maximum speed at reduced RPM (2800) due to compressibility. Max speed was given as 450mph at 28,000ft
III.........FX858....................Merlin 100................Maximinum RPM thoughout; 130 octane fuel


In the Aircraft index section there are 41 Mustangs listed by serial number with arrived date, a one or two word description as to the type of test and page number for further information. However no type number or engine type is shown for these 41 planes in the list

They seem to be sorted by Serial number so AM118 shows up between AM106/G and AM130/G despite arrival dates at Boscombe Down of 17 Feb 44, 03 Apr 43 and 17 Dec 42 respectively.

If I can look up anything in this book that would be of assistance let me know.

Hi,
I guess your "MA208" above was AM208, converted to Mustang X with Merlin 65 by RR Hucknall for first flight after conv 13 Nov 1942 with Merlin 65 No.81953?

Eng

 

[Shortround6]

Nice catch, I seem to be making more typo's these days and was one of the Forums Champions at typos 10 year ago.

 

[Snautzer01]

Nice catch, I seem to be making more typo's these days and was one of the Forums Champions at typos 10 year ago.

I blame auto typo control. Yes . I stick with that.

 

[drgondog]

I blame auto typo control. Yes . I stick with that.

I have a failing keyboard which misses about one in 10 keystrokes.. plus old and feeble - and lazy.

 

[Snautzer01]

I have a failing keyboard which misses about one in 10 keystrokes.. plus old and feeble - and lazy.

Nah.. you cannot play the old card. I read about everything you posted here and elsewhere, books etc.
If the Stones can release a pretty good album in their 80... no. Get another keyboard.

 

[ThomasP]

If you have not done so recently, get your eyes and/or prescription lenses checked. These are the most common reasons for misspelling and other typos by the elderly. Many people think it is just because they are old and can't do anything about it.

 

[Shortround6]

My eyes see pretty good, my mind sometimes words that aren't there. I thought the word as I typed but my fingers went right to the next word and skipped one.
I have to read read things to find the missing words/letters.

 

[special ed]

I find some dislexia involved. Instead of a "d", often a "k" shows up. If I posted without proof reading and editing, it would look like code.

 

[Snautzer01]

Same here.And offcourse ninja spelling control changing stuff as i hit post.

 

[Deleted member 68059]

I'm a bit suspicious of M.92 myself. I'm thinking airspeed error.

Based on your post, this is one place I'll have to disagree with Eric Brown. The P-47 shot down over 3,600 enemy airplanes and added a lot more on the ground. That's hardly useless, and the P-47 was vastly superior to the Fw 190 at high altitudes while the Fw 190 would hardly get there and was a bit of a slug above 20,000 feet. At least until the Fw 190D showed up, and there weren't all that many of them. Of some 20,600 Fw 190s built, there were 1,850 D models. So, if you saw an Fw 190, you stood about a 9% chance of it being a D model. In practice, less because the D's didn't show up until later. So ... it depends.

I'd pick the radial Fw 190 as superior at, say, 17,000 feet but I'd take a P-47 at 25,000 and above every single time unless it was an Fw 190D. Then it would be a fight. I'd still pick the P-47 above 35,000 feet.

Eric Brown should KNOW that. I'll have to watch the video ... maybe he does. Never heard any Brit of that generation sing the praises of ANY US airplane, so at least this is consistent.

Any ?

(Erhest Hives, head of RR, 17th Nov 1942)

 

[33k in the air]

The report states the internal fuel capacity of the P-47 as being 202 Imperial gallons, which equals 242.6 US gallons. But wasn'tthe internal fuel capacity of the earlier P-47s was 300 US gallons? In which case, what happened to the other 57.4 US gallons?

 

[SaparotRob]

My dad drank them.

 

[drgondog]

The report states the internal fuel capacity of the P-47 as being 202 Imperial gallons, which equals 242.6 US gallons. But wasn'tthe internal fuel capacity of the earlier P-47s was 300 US gallons? In which case, what happened to the other 57.4 US gallons?

Yes, for all models through the D-23. 305gal, afterwards 305 plus 65 auxiliary.

 

[tomo pauk]

Yes, for all models through the D-23. 305gal, afterwards 305 plus 65 auxiliary.

Auxiliary tank was always at 100 US gals.
Main tank was 1st at 205 US gals, later (with 'bubbletop' versions) increased to 270.

 

[drgondog]

Auxiliary tank was always at 100 US gals.
Main tank was 1st at 205 US gals, later (with 'bubbletop' versions) increased to 270.

You are absolutley correct - brain fart on my part.

 

[Greyman]

Never heard any Brit of that generation sing the praises of ANY US airplane, so at least this is consistent.

Snowygrouch scratched the surface on it, but there are several reports on US aircraft from British testing establishments that are littered with superlatives.

I'd like to point out that six of Eric Brown's all-time top 20 aircraft he'd ever flown were US aircraft;

• Boeing Superfortress
• Douglas Boston
• Grumman Bearcat
• Lockheed Constellation
• McDonnell Phantom II
• North American Sabre (particularly the E), he also specifically called out this as his favourite jet aircraft he ever flew

Only beat out in number by British aircraft by one;

• Avro Lancaster
• de Havilland Hornet
• Gloster Gladiator
• Hawker Hunter
• Martin-Baker M.B.5
• Supermarine Spitfire (particularly the XII)
• Vickers Viscount

For what it's worth -- rounding out the list:

• Bucker Jungmeister
• Fiesler Storch
• Focke-Wulf 190 (particularly the D9)
• Junkers 88
• Macchi 205
• -edit- Messerschmitt 262
• Nakajima 'Frank'