Which jet was better, the Me 262 or the Gloster Meteor?
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Glider
Captain
Just a thought. If you consider the 262 to be a debacle, what aircraft would you consider to be a success?
red admiral
Senior Airman
- 479
- Mar 24, 2005
See report here especially para 3. The limitation to 500kcas isn't structural but rather aerodynamic due to Mach effects. 500kcas at 6500ft corresponds to 630mph or Mach 0.85, so there is plenty of scope for the Meteor to dive to higher speeds from level flight. Given that the limiting Mach for the Me 262 is ~0.86, there isn't any great difference.
On the structural side of things the RAF was more worried about the progression to higher speeds giving the ability to pull higher g loads, so they adopted a fairly stiff control format which limited agility a bit but helped the aircraft not to fall apart. Too conservative? Maybe, but quite a few other period had habits of falling apart at high speeds.
I think calling it a debacle is unfair. Sure it was not perfect and had problems, but what early jet aircraft did not?
Glider
Captain
Good find, just what I was hoping to find at the NA. One point though, all the speeds I have been quoted are indicated air speeds and the fact remains that the Meteor was limited to 500mph until the new nacelles are installed. It also clearly states that the new nacelles are not expected before August 1945 but unfortunately doesnt say when they arrived at the front line. It is probable that the limit of 500mph was in place during the conflict.
I don't know the Mach limitation on the Meteor III but I do know that it was Mach 0.8 on the Meteor I.
Glider
Captain
I wasn't the one calling the 262 a debacle, far from it.
Of 1440 aircraft that were built, only around 300 ever saw service. That was due not to fuel shortages, but
1 A shortage of pilots who were of the calibre needed to fly it.
2 Its abysmal reliability.
2 Its abysmal reliability.
"Apparently, according to Hans, this German jet fuel was terribly noxious. You simply threw away any clothes that came in contact with it. Interestingly, Hans stated that there was NEVER a shortage of jet fuel, just a shortage of aircraft and pilots. Whatever hydrocarbon fuel cracking process being used by the Germans in late war (whether synthetic, coal-derived fuels or conventional), the process or processes yielded an abundant quantity of jet-suitable fuel."
Microsoft's Paul Allen's Me-262 Landmark Restoration - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums
The two factors were obviously interrelated. The lack of reliability was due to the very poor engine design and to a lesser extent, the poor standard of build and general design.Microsoft's Paul Allen's Me-262 Landmark Restoration - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums
The engine need not have been unreliable. The Germans allocated many times the nickel requirement to their tank program. The jets SHOULD have been given far higher priority than the tanks. This looks to be an example of a Wehrmacht-centric mindset by the Germans. Nobody seems to question this.
In terms of pilot calibre, Erich Hartmann the top German Ace qualified but chose not to participate:
Asisbiz Messerschmitt Bf 109G-6 'Red 1' flown by Leutnant Erich Hartmann, Staffelkapitan 9./JG52, October 1943
Q: Adolf Galland told me of how he tried to get you into his JV-44 in 1945. Why did you not take him up on the offer, like Krupi and Barkhorn?
A: I did qualify in the Me-262, but my heart and friends were in JG-52, and I felt that was where I belonged. Unit loyalty to me was important. Plus I had many new pilots who needed guidance and instruction. They were getting younger all the time and had fewer and fewer hours of flight instruction before they were thrown into battle. I was needed and that was where I stayed. Rall, Krupinski, Steinhoff and others were transferred to the Reich Defense, where they ended their war. I was torn between these facts, but I felt that I made the right decision at the time. In later years I realized that my life would have been very different if I had stayed with JV-44.
So 300 out of 1400 aircraft (i.e. 22%) ever to see service, with a maximum of about 60 (4%) at any given time, has to be a fiasco or a debacle or whatever you want to call it. It was that. A: I did qualify in the Me-262, but my heart and friends were in JG-52, and I felt that was where I belonged. Unit loyalty to me was important. Plus I had many new pilots who needed guidance and instruction. They were getting younger all the time and had fewer and fewer hours of flight instruction before they were thrown into battle. I was needed and that was where I stayed. Rall, Krupinski, Steinhoff and others were transferred to the Reich Defense, where they ended their war. I was torn between these facts, but I felt that I made the right decision at the time. In later years I realized that my life would have been very different if I had stayed with JV-44.
Or maybe it was just a complete and utter stuff-up.
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Oh I know, I was just responding to what you said.
No, it is not a debacle. You are describing early jet technology. And technology from a country that is on a losing side of a war.
Please, re-read
page 6 paragraph 54
(i) :The maximum permissible speed on the meteor MKIII imposed for structural considerations is 500mph.
(ii) : The critical mach on the Meteor MKIII is .74 (this is additionnal to the 500mph IAS restriction mentioned
above). Therefor it can be seen that at low alt the structural limitation is the deciding maximum and at
altitude it is the Mach. number limitation.
page11 , paragraphs 90->93>limitation speeds are showed and also, the effects on the plane.
exemples: 20000ft :max 400 IAS
30000ft :max 325 IAS
35000ft :max 290 IAS
Why kept them the elevator LIGHT then and the HIGH Seating position ? it's the best combination to black out the pilot and break the wings.
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Maybe if they hadn't stuffed up the Schwalbe project they wouldn't have been losing so rapidly...
Glider
Captain
Clearly you consider the development of the Me 262 using a new technology, the design and development of an aircraft that is when used correctly immune to interception from fighters, that could pick and choose when to attack, whilst having a one pass one kill potential against heavy bombers, that was used as a fighter bomber and developed as a night fighter was a 'stuffed up project'.
I have asked before, what aircraft development you would condiser to be a success?
With 4% availability, it was a pretty damned dreadful in terms of its effectiveness... it was only able to perhaps very slightly delay the inevitable... if that.
I guess a good definition would be a successful aircraft is one that can contribute strongly in terms of saving its country from defeat or guaranteeing that it wouldn't happen when you are on the defensive... or winning a war if you are on the offensive ...
I guess a good definition would be a successful aircraft is one that can contribute strongly in terms of saving its country from defeat or guaranteeing that it wouldn't happen when you are on the defensive... or winning a war if you are on the offensive ...
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Seriously, the 262 would not have changed anything. There was no way it was going to be a serious factor in time. There were too many factors to keep it from becoming so. Too many things that Germany had control over and too many things that it did not have control over. Either way the Germany was not going to win the war no matter what, does not matter what your agenda is.
+1
Like I said, I do not believe the 262 was perfect or anything, but lets be realistic and objective.
So lets say the 262 would have been developed by England or the USA. What would your opinion be then (well I guess you would consider it facts...). Just curious...
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Glider
Captain
And your nomination is?
Glider
Captain
I am after his nomination for a fighter development during the war that was in his opinion a success.
What jet aircraft during WW2 did that?
That's a good topic for a further discussion ... why don't you start it...?
Erich
the old Sage
the 262 was very effective for the numbers given history shows this. go ask a US 4-engine bomber crewman if you can find one, he will tell you the chaos it reigned and the fear it brought into the crewmens hearts ; thank God Almighty for the US P-51 Mustang..............
Right, Erich...
And if there had ever been 1400 Me 262s put in the air, the USAAF wouldn't have come back the next day.
What is your explanation for the lack of pilots and the lack of planes?
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Erich
the old Sage
plenty of pilots and plenty of planes, no fuel........end of story and this prolonged thread
