Which was the best night fighter?

[Civettone]

Frantish, no Do 17 with DB 605s?


Kris

 

[spicmart]

Looks wise, the Ta 154 for me . Also had potential.

 

[Civettone]

The Ta 154 was a horrible plane. Flew like a pig and fell apart. Don't think for a second that the bombing of that factory was the reason it never got anywhere.


Kris

 

[zoomar]

The Ta 154 was a horrible plane. Flew like a pig and fell apart. Don't think for a second that the bombing of that factory was the reason it never got anywhere.


Kris

What authorities support the claim that the Ta-154 was a "horrible plane" that "flew like a pig"? Everything I've read indicates that it performed well and would have been an excellent fighter if the wood construction problms could be solved.

 

[tail end charlie]

The best night fighter was the one with the best radar/ electonics, it was the start of a plane being part of a weapons system in a battle fought by boffins and technicians as much as pilots.

 

[Erich]

no the best NF was the pilot and the crew flying it.

NJG3 tested the Ta 154 and the details on it's performance were quite dismal the same can be said when the I. gruppe tested the He 219 they were not interested in the Uhu and kept flying the Ju 88G-6

 

[tail end charlie]

no the best NF was the pilot and the crew flying it.

NJG3 tested the Ta 154 and the details on it's performance were quite dismal the same can be said when the I. gruppe tested the He 219 they were not interested in the Uhu and kept flying the Ju 88G-6

How does a pilot make a kill without radar electronics? what does the crew do apart from operating radar/electronics and communicating with the ground control using the same?

 

[Erich]

well lets see moon on a moonlit night. fires on the earth below sets up silhouette of bombers of NF's for that matter and in the case of the LW when radar was jammed even the versions of the FuG 220d set up you used your eyes and they were still effective

 

[tail end charlie]

well lets see moon on a moonlit night. fires on the earth below sets up silhouette of bombers of NF's for that matter and in the case of the LW when radar was jammed even the versions of the FuG 220d set up you used your eyes and they were still effective

Are you saying that allowing fires to be lit and waiting for moonlight is part of a fighter defence? Both ises in the night raids in Europe developed radar radar countermeasures and electronic aids to improve performance. Of course eyes are needed but you need to be close to use them.

 

[Colin1]

Are you saying that allowing fires to be lit and waiting for moonlight is part of a fighter defence?

In a word, yes
I'm not sure what you mean by 'allowing fires to be lit' - the conflagration caused by the falling bombs didn't really require any form of permission from its victims.

There is nothing wrong with what you are claiming, the electronics war was on the path it was, well, on; there was no turning back but moonlight and 'back-lighting', in WWII, were accepted methods of acquisition, even late in the war.

 

[tail end charlie]

In a word, yes
I'm not sure what you mean by 'allowing fires to be lit' - the conflagration caused by the falling bombs didn't really require any form of permission from its victims.

There is nothing wrong with what you are claiming, the electronics war was on the path it was, well, on; there was no turning back but moonlight and 'back-lighting', in WWII, were accepted methods of acquisition, even late in the war.

The fires caused by bombing is what the fighter is supposed to be preventing, I thought we were discussing the best night fighter not the worst case scenario where pilots reverted to methods used in WW1.

 

[Civettone]

For a large part of the time the electronics were useless because of succesful allied jamming ... only increased the value of a pair of eyes. Erich can tell you stories about NJ crews wanting an extra crew member on board just for that.

As to the Ta 154, it was tail heavy and underpowered. The Jumo 211R never materialized as far as I know. Preserie Ta 154 existed, were tested without success. Only one pilot had anything positive to say about it. A failure ... just like the He 219.

There was only one option left: the Me 410 and I believe it is because of the two aircraft above that it never became a NF.
Kris

 

[Colin1]

The fires caused by bombing is what the fighter is supposed to be preventing,

I thought we were discussing the best night fighter not the worst case scenario where pilots reverted to methods used in WW1.

Well
as the saying went, "the bomber will always get through"

We were and we still are, we deviated off-topic again, at your behest, to address your reservations concerning the use of moonlight and back-lighting.

 

[tail end charlie]

Well
as the saying went, "the bomber will always get through"

We were and we still are, we deviated off-topic again, at your behest, to address your reservations concerning the use of moonlight and back-lighting.

I dont see where I deviated off topic I stated that the best night fighter had the best radar and electronics, there are ways to overcome jamming (electronics) meaning that you dont have to resort to using eyes only. My "reservations" are that it only works in moonlight and against a burning city. I didnt state any particular marque of aircraft or any particulat force, the fighter and air force which had the upper hand changed during the conflict as the technology changed, I still stick to my original statement.

Nothing was at my "behest" I made a statement which I believe to be true others put forward other opinions which they believe to be true, that is, I believe, what forums are for.

 

[tomo pauk]

Agree with TEC - this thread is about the best night fighter (best combination of airframe, engines(s), guns, avionics..), not about the best night fighter crew (flying the plane, has learned stuff, has experience...).

 

[Erich]

then make the list or approve of 1-2 NF 's with reasons, lets face it sure the measure s of radar and counter measures were done from both sides but then what. but it is also about the crew what they could do with what they were given.......

 

[spicmart]

no the best NF was the pilot and the crew flying it.

NJG3 tested the Ta 154 and the details on it's performance were quite dismal the same can be said when the I. gruppe tested the He 219 they were not interested in the Uhu and kept flying the Ju 88G-6

Various sources mention various things about this airplane, but I (want to8)) believe the performance without weapons and antennas was actually pretty good with regards to the relatively weak Jumo 211. The plane achieved about 700 km/h AFAIK. Performance suffered a whopping loss of 10 % with equipment installed.
I'm not sure if it was enough to counter the mosquito threat but, well, the mosquito did not have the extremely drag-inducing "Hirschgeweih" antenna of the german planes.
So as a pure fighter plane, I think it was pretty competitive, much more manoeuverable than the Me 110 (unfortunately I don't remember the source to back this up) which was of similar dimensions and weight.
The Tank planes tend to be more agile than the Messerschmitt planes of similar outline as their wings were much more rugged to provide good torsional stiffness AFAIK.
They were more "pilot's airplanes" as Tank's philosophy was to buid pilot friendly aircraft.
The Messerschmitt designs had the reputation to be unsafe.
The version equipped with with Jumo213E would have been outstanding
But feel free to correct me.

 

[Erich]

essentially correct, what the LW should of done is scratch this crate and just pushed for the 262 jet for night duties expanding the too small Kommando Welter into Geschwader size.

 

[Civettone]

Various sources mention various things about this airplane, but I (want to8)) believe the performance without weapons and antennas was actually pretty good with regards to the relatively weak Jumo 211. The plane achieved about 700 km/h AFAIK. Performance suffered a whopping loss of 10 % with equipment installed.
I'm not sure if it was enough to counter the mosquito threat but, well, the mosquito did not have the extremely drag-inducing "Hirschgeweih" antenna of the german planes.
So as a pure fighter plane, I think it was pretty competitive, much more manoeuverable than the Me 110 (unfortunately I don't remember the source to back this up) which was of similar dimensions and weight.
The Tank planes tend to be more agile than the Messerschmitt planes of similar outline as their wings were much more rugged to provide good torsional stiffness AFAIK.
They were more "pilot's airplanes" as Tank's philosophy was to buid pilot friendly aircraft.
The Messerschmitt designs had the reputation to be unsafe.
The version equipped with with Jumo213E would have been outstanding
But feel free to correct me.

Where to start? Achieved 700 kmh? With what engines? Night fighters don't need to be manoeuvrable, but stable. The two are opposites. Tank planes more agile? The Fw 190 wasnt more agile than the Bf 109. There is nothing else to compare. Other aircraft are not comparable. I have never heard that Tank made pilot friendly aircraft. I wouldn't even know what that means. Any aircraft would be outstanding with a Jumo 213E.

Kris

 

[spicmart]

Where to start? Achieved 700 kmh? With what engines? Night fighters don't need to be manoeuvrable, but stable. The two are opposites. Tank planes more agile? The Fw 190 wasnt more agile than the Bf 109. There is nothing else to compare. Other aircraft are not comparable. I have never heard that Tank made pilot friendly aircraft. I wouldn't even know what that means. Any aircraft would be outstanding with a Jumo 213E.

Kris

With the Jumo 211 rated at 2 x 1500 PS.
I think in the high speed realm the Fw 190 was more agile than the Bf 109. At least from all that I read before, it was more at home in aerobatics than the 109 AFAIK.
In Wolfgang Wagner's "Kurt Tank-Konstrukteur und Testpilot bei Focke Wulf" it is mentioned that Tank, he himself being a pilot, put special emphasis in the ergonomic construction of an airplane.
Well, but this book was written with Tank approval and help so it is possible that some self-adulation occurred
Messerschmitt seemed to have been more focused on performance at the expense of some comfort, ease of handling, safety, stability and ruggedness.

Sorry for this being a bit off topic.
If it goes too far, I will cease it.