Which was the best night fighter?

[Koopernic]

Goering was in charge of the LW he told Hitler or was responsible for Hitler being told. Hitler took forces from the sixth army before Stalingrad and was late providing reinforcements. Hitler as usual forbade retreat or surrender to people in a hopeless position I have no idea what the air lift was supposed to achieve, Germany had no chance of closing the gap and relieving Stalingrad and the occupants had no chance of breaking out. Obviously not Adolf or Herman's fault though, they were "let down".

Whatever policies Goerings appointees Milch, Jenkonshenk and Udet followed they were very sucessfull until mid 1940 and quite possibly the only sensible policies. The tight focus on tactical aircraft, twin engined bombers, fighters, non duplication of aircraft types to ensure efficient mass production ensured the Luftwaffe was far better equipped than France (or Poland) and Germany was not defeated in a two front war against 3 nations.

Examination of French aircaft manufacturing policy in this era deserves its own book but it's is one of energy dissipated across many types built in smaller less efficient factories.

While we might note that the Luftwaffe failed to equip its fighters with drop tanks its also worth considering that Happ Arnold specifically ordered drop tanks to NOT be supplied to P-47 which lead to the Schweinfurt disaster and the P51 myth.

After about 1941 almost everything ran into technical problems and delays: Me 210, He 177, Ju 288. Only the Fw 190 was a success.

Even if these aircraft technical problems became fixed as they were on the Me 210/410 it was now too late since the factory expansion investment needed had been put into modified older types and resources no longer existed.

 

[pbehn]

Whatever policies Goerings appointees Milch, Jenkonshenk and Udet followed they were very sucessfull until mid 1940 and quite possibly the only sensible policies. The tight focus on tactical aircraft, twin engined bombers, fighters non duplication of aircraft types to ensure efficient mass production ensured the Luftwaffe was far better equipped than France (or Poland) and Germany was not defeated in a two front war against 3 nations.

While we might note that the Luftwaffe failed to equip its fighters with drop tanks its also worth considering that Happ Arnold specifically ordered drop tanks to NOT be supplied to P-47 which lead to the Schweinfurt disaster and the P51 myth.

.

By mid 1940 the UK was producing twice as many single engine fighters than the country that declared war on Europe. What on earth is the "P-51 myth" a 1943 P-47 could not escort to Schweinfurt with tanks or without them.

 

[Denniss]

Bf 110 recces during BoB got the engine upgrade to DB 601P as soon as it was available. Its higher altitude power enabled them to get a speedbump urgently needed for their recon duty.

 

[tomo pauk]

While we might note that the Luftwaffe failed to equip its fighters with drop tanks its also worth considering that Happ Arnold specifically ordered drop tanks to NOT be supplied to P-47 which lead to the Schweinfurt disaster and the P51 myth.

Sources for Hap Arnold specifically ordering that P-47s are not supplied with drop tanks? What the heck is the "P-51 myth"?

 

[pbehn]

Sources for Hap Arnold specifically ordering that P-47s are not supplied with drop tanks? What the heck is the "P-51 myth"?

discussed on this very forum P-47: Range, Deceit and Treachery

 

[tomo pauk]

discussed on this very forum P-47: Range, Deceit and Treachery

My question still remains.

 

[pbehn]

My question still remains.

Well its a well worn hobby horse, post no 118 on that thread and others before and after are very informative. basically you cant just randomly bolt tanks onto war planes, its a bit complicated.

 

[Koopernic]

Sources for Hap Arnold specifically ordering that P-47s are not supplied with drop tanks? What the heck is the "P-51 myth"?

As others have posted.
P-47 Thunderbolt Pt. 6 Range, Deceit and Treachery. - YouTube
1 Happ Arnold document ordering no development of drop tanks in produced in the first few minutes: minute 4.07
2 P-47B/C with 305 gallons internal and one 205 gallon external drop tank could reach Schweinfurt from Newmarket UK with combat and military power. 14 minutes into video.
3 Latter P-47C/D had 370 gallon internal and 2 x 205 gallons drop tanks and escort range of 700 miles.
4 P-47 in Europe were equipped for drop tanks and the drop tanks were developed and tested. They just weren't supplied. They weren't supplied deliberately.



Summary
1 Bomber Mafia in USAAF/USAAC dominated politically and supressed proponents of fighters because didn't want to spend money on fighters.
Claire Chenault was a victim of this which is why he ended up in the AVG.
2 Initial USAAF bomber mafia response to 25% and 26% total loss rate of bombers on the two Schweinfurt raids was to use B-26 as decoys and try and develop a YB-17 armed with more guns to escort the bombers rather than ship drop tanks to Europe.
3 Tested, certified, Drop tanks were available because Republic developed them to ship aircraft and USN wanted them. (USN drop tanks for Hudson and Ventura were used on P-38)
4 Bomber Mafia policy ensured neither the P-47 had the drop tanks or improved tankage available.
5 P-51 myth is that the P-51 was the only way to escort. P-47 could have been developed with more fuel earlier.
6 P-51 was convenient ass covering exercise as well as good aircraft.

7 Distance Dover to Schweinfurt is 640km (408 miles) and distance Newmarket to Schweinfurt is 720km (460 miles) both within range of basic 305 gallon P-47 with one 200 gallon drop tank.

Even the Spitfire VIII could have escorted:
1 Spitfire VIII replaced the 48 and 36 gallon fuselage tanks with 2 x 48 gallon tank and added two leading edge wing tanks (I think 10.5-12 gallons each) also had retractable tail wheel.
2 Few Spitfire VIII produced as airframe used for thirsty Griffon variants. Mainly used in near and far east due to its greater range (600+ miles I think)
3 Older Spitfire IX produced in large numbers lacked wing tanks and increased fuselage tank but was given a 40 gallon(approx.) tail tank often called a ferry tank because half would need to be burned of as it prevent combat manoeuvring due to CoG issues.
4 Put the tail tank of the Spitfire IX into the Spitfire VIII and burn half of if of during take-off and climb and use the standard British jettison tank 45-55 gallons and the Spitfire VIII has enormous range.

It was USAAF policy that suppressed development of the escort fighter, not lack of technology.

Just saying the USAAF could do stupid politically things as well, not just Luftwaffe. They did learn from their mistakes.

The US could afford to make more mistakes because it could afford to correct them more. The attempts by Curtiss to produce a replacement for the P-40 are almost as legion as napkinwaffe.

 

[pbehn]

As others have posted.
P-47 Thunderbolt Pt. 6 Range, Deceit and Treachery. - YouTube
1 Happ Arnold document ordering no development of drop tanks in produced in the first few minutes: minute 4.07
2 P-47B/C with 305 gallons internal and one 205 gallon external drop tank could reach Schweinfurt from Newmarket UK with combat and military power. 14 minutes into video.
3 Latter P-47C/D had 370 gallon internal and 2 x 205 gallons drop tanks and escort range of 700 miles.
4 P-47 in Europe were equipped for drop tanks and the drop tanks were developed and tested. They just weren't supplied. They weren't supplied deliberately.



Summary
1 Bomber Mafia in USAAF/USAAC dominated politically and supressed proponents of fighters because didn't want to spend money on fighters.
Claire Chenault was a victim of this which is why he ended up in the AVG.
2 Initial USAAF bomber mafia response to 25% and 26% total loss rate of bombers on the two Schweinfurt raids was to use B-26 as decoys and try and develop a YB-17 armed with more guns to escort the bombers rather than ship drop tanks to Europe.
3 Tested, certified, Drop tanks were available because Republic developed them to ship aircraft and USN wanted them. (USN drop tanks for Hudson and Ventura were used on P-38)
4 Bomber Mafia policy ensured neither the P-47 had the drop tanks or improved tankage available.
5 P-51 myth is that the P-51 was the only way to escort. P-47 could have been developed with more fuel earlier.
6 P-51 was convenient ass covering exercise as well as good aircraft.

7 Distance Dover to Schweinfurt is 640km (408 miles) and distance Newmarket to Schweinfurt is 720km (460 miles) both within range of basic 305 gallon P-47 with one 200 gallon drop tank.

Even the Spitfire VIII could have escorted:
1 Spitfire VIII replaced the 48 and 36 gallon fuselage tanks with 2 x 48 gallon tank and added two leading edge wing tanks (I think 10.5-12 gallons each) also had retractable tail wheel.
2 Few Spitfire VIII produced as airframe used for thirsty Griffon variants. Mainly used in near and far east due to its greater range (600+ miles I think)
3 Older Spitfire IX produced in large numbers lacked wing tanks and increased fuselage tank but was given a 40 gallon(approx.) tail tank often called a ferry tank because half would need to be burned of as it prevent combat manoeuvring due to CoG issues.
4 Put the tail tank of the Spitfire IX into the Spitfire VIII and burn half of if of during take-off and climb and use the standard British jettison tank 45-55 gallons and the Spitfire VIII has enormous range.

It was USAAF policy that suppressed development of the escort fighter, not lack of technology.

Just saying the USAAF could do stupid politically things as well, not just Luftwaffe. They did learn from their mistakes.

The US could afford to make more mistakes because it could afford to correct them more. The attempts by Curtiss to produce a replacement for the P-40 are almost as legion as napkinwaffe.

You post a link and then ignore what is in it yourself.

 

[Koopernic]

You post a link and then ignore what is in it yourself.

Specifically what are you talking about me ignoring? The video reinforces the following statements:
1 A P47C with 305 gallons internal fuel and a 205 gallons drop tank could escort 470 miles radius which is sufficient to cover the USAAF UK base at Newmarket to Schweinfurt (460 miles) with careful use of military power and WEP to engage in combat with Luftwaffe fighters. That would require phased escorting to spare the P47 from burning fuel in early combat.

2 Happ Arnold ordered drop tanks NOT to be supplied to fighters in 1939. He did so because he thought he was doing the right thing by ensuring the USAAF funded development of bombers rather than escort fighters, much like Udet, Milch and Jenkonshenk made decisions that turned out to be wrong.

 

[Milosh]

Arrogant U.S. Generals Made the P-51 Mustang a Necessity | by War Is Boring | War Is Boring | Medium

A long but good article on drop tanks and politics.

 

[pbehn]

Specifically what are you talking about me ignoring? The video reinforces the following statements:
1 A P47C with 305 gallons internal fuel and a 205 gallons drop tank could escort 470 miles radius which is sufficient to cover the USAAF UK base at Newmarket to Schweinfurt (460 miles) with careful use of military power and WEP to engage in combat with Luftwaffe fighters. That would require phased escorting to spare the P47 from burning fuel in early combat.

2 Happ Arnold ordered drop tanks NOT to be supplied to fighters in 1939. He did so because he thought he was doing the right thing by ensuring the USAAF funded development of bombers rather than escort fighters, much like Udet, Milch and Jenkonshenk made decisions that turned out to be wrong.

Is every video on youtube a fact? Read the comments in the thread not the video. What people said and did in 1939 has no relevance to what they said and did in 1943, Germany hadn't declared war on the USA in 1939 and the USA was a neutral country. The distance a plane can cruise unmolested is not the distance it can escort a bomber formation, the fighters have to form up, then form up with the bombers then cruise at a speed that means they don't get bounced above bombers cruising at a ground speed of 180 MPH. A fully loaded P-51 could cruise from UK to Berlin, return to UK airspace and then turn round and go to Berlin and back again, but only in peacetime, that is an illustration of how much extra fuel the operation of escort needs.

 

[pbehn]

Arrogant U.S. Generals Made the P-51 Mustang a Necessity | by War Is Boring | War Is Boring | Medium

A long but good article on drop tanks and politics.

It doesn't say what anyone planned to do with a P-36 fitted with a 56 gal drop tank in 1939, it doesn't seem to recognise the invention and deployment of RADAR.

 

[tomo pauk]

As others have posted.
P-47 Thunderbolt Pt. 6 Range, Deceit and Treachery. - YouTube
1 Happ Arnold document ordering no development of drop tanks in produced in the first few minutes: minute 4.07
2 P-47B/C with 305 gallons internal and one 205 gallon external drop tank could reach Schweinfurt from Newmarket UK with combat and military power. 14 minutes into video.
3 Latter P-47C/D had 370 gallon internal and 2 x 205 gallons drop tanks and escort range of 700 miles.
4 P-47 in Europe were equipped for drop tanks and the drop tanks were developed and tested. They just weren't supplied. They weren't supplied deliberately.

Arnold's policy didn't "specifically ordered drop tanks to NOT be supplied to P-47", as you've claimed. Order was general.
Disagree about the 700 mile radius of P-47C/D, under the AAF rules as posted under; Pacific might be different.

5 P-51 myth is that the P-51 was the only way to escort. P-47 could have been developed with more fuel earlier.
6 P-51 was convenient ass covering exercise as well as good aircraft.
7 Distance Dover to Schweinfurt is 640km (408 miles) and distance Newmarket to Schweinfurt is 720km (460 miles) both within range of basic 305 gallon P-47 with one 200 gallon drop tank.

Yet, the P-47D with 305+2x150 gal tanks was rated by AAF of having a 425 mile radius under the AAF rules (210 mph IAS cruise at 25000 ft - around 310 mph TAS - with 15+5 min combat duration, and 30 min fuel reserve). P-51B-5 was rated for 700 mile radius under the same conditions. Even the P-47s with 370+2x150 gal, used from mid-1944, were rated for 600 miles. Source the AAF table from pg. 599 of the AHT book.
The P-51 was not the only way to escort, it was just the best way to escort in 1944.

It was USAAF policy that suppressed development of the escort fighter, not lack of technology.
Just saying the USAAF could do stupid politically things as well, not just Luftwaffe. They did learn from their mistakes.

Agreed.

 

[Milosh]

 

[Koopernic]

View attachment 610762

It's an interesting chart but it's deceiving because of what it doesn't show. As Greg's Planes and Automobiles pointed out there was a Republic developed and certified 205 gallon drop tank available and most P-47 were plumbed to use it. It was available at the time of the Schweinfurt raids. It's Range would be perhaps a little less than the 2 x 108 gallon tanks.

Republic had developed it using private funding for purposes of ferry flights and overseas customers. The response of the "bomber mafia" to the 25% attrition of the Schweinfurt raids was to use B26 raids as decoys to draw of Luftwaffe and develop the YB-40(edited) (upgunned ) B-17 as an escort, both failed. They could have just shipped the 205 gallon tanks Immediately. Even the Luftwaffe caught out on lack of drop tanks in the BoB responded faster and they actually had to modify Me 109 on the production line.

Ranges can be extended by compromising combat power time and WEP power time as well as careful use of relay escorts. Even if some of P47 exceed this and have to break of early (say 90 miles out from target) at least the B17 are only exposed 25 minutes to German fighters before they drop bombs and can accelerate away.

Any drop tank is better than no drop tank and an escort that might have to turns back 30-60 minutes away from target is better than one that turns back 2-3 hours out.

 

[pbehn]

It's an interesting chart but it's deceiving because of what it doesn't show. As Greg's Planes and Automobiles pointed out there was a Republic developed and certified 205 gallon drop tank available and most P-47 were plumbed to use it. It was available at the time of the Schweinfurt raids. It's Range would be perhaps a little less than the 2 x 108 gallon tanks.

Republic had developed it using private funding for purposes of ferry flights and overseas customers. The response of the "bomber mafia" to the 25% attrition of the Schweinfurt raids was to use B26 raids as decoys to draw of Luftwaffe and develop the YB-17 as an escort, both failed. They could have just shipped the 205 gallon tanks Immediately. Even the Luftwaffe caught out on lack of drop tanks in the BoB responded faster and they actually had to modify 109 on the production line.

Ranges can be extended by compromising combat power time and WEP power time as well as careful use of relay escorts. Even if some of P47 exceed this and have to break of early (say 90 miles out from target) at least the B17 are only exposed 25 minutes to German fighters before they drop bombs and can accelerate away.

Any drop tank is better than no drop tank and an escort that might have to turns back 30-60 minutes away from target is better than one that turns back 2-3 hours out.

A ferry tank is not a drop tank as explained in the comments on the link both you and I posted.

 

[Koopernic]

Arnold's policy didn't "specifically ordered drop tanks to NOT be supplied to P-47", as you've claimed. Order was general.
Disagree about the 700 mile radius of P-47C/D, under the AAF rules as posted under; Pacific might be different.



Yet, the P-47D with 305+2x150 gal tanks was rated by AAF of having a 425 mile radius under the AAF rules (210 mph IAS cruise at 25000 ft - around 310 mph TAS - with 15+5 min combat duration, and 30 min fuel reserve). P-51B-5 was rated for 700 mile radius under the same conditions. Even the P-47s with 370+2x150 gal, used from mid-1944, were rated for 600 miles. Source the AAF table from pg. 599 of the AHT book.
The P-51 was not the only way to escort, it was just the best way to escort in 1944.



Agreed.

The key point Gregs Planes & Automobiles makes is that the 205 gallon republic developed and fully certified drop tanks were available to extend the range of the P47 at the time of the Schweinfurt raids but because of the internal politics of the bomber mafia, which Arnold was part of, ensured they were not in the inventory. Not only that they wasted time trying other methods such as diversionary raids using medium bombers and heavily armed escort bombers and developing their own tanks.

While under the then USAAF cruise speed, 30 minute reserve plus 15+5 combat power WEP rules the P47 couldnt make it to Scweinfurt they could by relaxing those rules. This would mean that statistically some P47 would need to turn back before the bombers reached target but many likely would not. It's a lot better than no escort at all.

Finally let's consider some of the failures of USAAF fighters in the early war years that have puzzled Americans.

P-38 late into production: This was caused by lack of proper funding of the P-38 so that only one prototype was built. This meant that when the prototype was lost nearly a year was lost making the second prototyp.

P40 and P39 poor altitude performance. The country that had all of those world renowned machine tool factories areound Philadelphia, Cincinnati etc shouldn't have had a smidgen of trouble making a two speed integrated planetary gearbox for the Allison V-1710.

Yes, you could blame congress but you can also blame the guy in the USAAF asking for the money and budgeting for it.

 

[Milosh]

It's an interesting chart but it's deceiving because of what it doesn't show. As Greg's Planes and Automobiles pointed out there was a Republic developed and certified 205 gallon drop tank available and most P-47 were plumbed to use it.

The tanks were unpressurized and unreliable, with only half the fuel being able to be used. Dual 75 gal pressurized and more reliable tanks allowed the P-47 to barely penetrate the German border. July1943

 

[pbehn]

P-38 late into production: This was caused by lack of proper funding of the P-38 so that only one prototype was built. This meant that when the prototype was lost nearly a year was lost making the second prototyp.

.

One prototype was built and it crashed setting a speed record, as a result production of others was ordered, this was in February 1939, just short of 3 years before Germany declared war on the USA.