Wind, now he seems to have been a very good fighter pilot and formation leader and his immediate superior valued him very high. But his claims were inaccurate.
Juha
Aces with 200+ victories: how do they stack up in 2012?
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Wind, now he seems to have been a very good fighter pilot and formation leader and his immediate superior valued him very high. But his claims were inaccurate.
Juha
Hello Denniss
have you seen the court papers or is your source T's and C's Blond Knight, in which they didn't got even his claim list correct. What I have heard from Russin researchers, that story is a myth.
Juha
fastmongrel
1st Sergeant
New research often knocks down some cherished facts. 30 years ago I thought I knew everything about the Battle of Britain and Operation Sealion now with new research I realise a good 50% of what I knew is now shown to be bunk. I look forward to new research showing that facts we know to be unimpeachable today are so much bunk tommorow. We will never have the ultimate 100% final answer which is good because it would be a boring world with nothing new to learn.
I've been circle track racing for over 20 years, i'm not going to compare it with combat, and I do have a little experience there too.
Since i've been racing one of my sponsors was a video photographer, he videoed all my races. A lot of times, what I thought happened, and what actually occured, would be different. When under stress the mind is occupied with survival, sometimes just getting thru the next few seconds, not keeping a accurate record of what happened. Then the longer you wait after the stressful event to piece together what happened, the more inaccurate you may get. That's why debriefings were done as close to after a mission as possible.
I remember when I was in Vietnam, I might see something happen, but someone else there might describe the same event, but it 'd be different. I'd worry, is he lying, or am I crazy? But the human eye is not a video camera, and the human mind is not is not a perfect recording device.
Since i've been racing one of my sponsors was a video photographer, he videoed all my races. A lot of times, what I thought happened, and what actually occured, would be different. When under stress the mind is occupied with survival, sometimes just getting thru the next few seconds, not keeping a accurate record of what happened. Then the longer you wait after the stressful event to piece together what happened, the more inaccurate you may get. That's why debriefings were done as close to after a mission as possible.
I remember when I was in Vietnam, I might see something happen, but someone else there might describe the same event, but it 'd be different. I'd worry, is he lying, or am I crazy? But the human eye is not a video camera, and the human mind is not is not a perfect recording device.
For the chosen one, see my answer to Njaco, nothing to do with Hartmann. Now I'm not very interested in Hartmann's career or claims but have seen conversations on the topic by Russian and Eastern Europen researchers, who seems to be thorough and reliable men, and they seem to think that the claim accuracy of German top aces varied greatly. Studing the claims of LW aces is easiest to Russians because they had easiest access to VVS docus.
Of course it would be good if someone who is interested in the claim accuracies of individul pilots would study for ex Pattle's, Tuck's and Bader's claim accuracies. Pattle's claims should be easy to go through using Shore's et al's books and crosschecking that info with German unit histories.
On Hartmann, try to find suitable Soviet losses to his 23 and 24 Aug 44 claims.
Juha
I agree completely, overclaiming was a norm, IMHO even 90% claim accuracy was an exception. And most overclaiming were made in good faith, a good fighter pilot should have a strong self-confidence and in bigger air combats it was very unhealthy to follow one's victim down to make sure that it really crashed. There are cases where deliberate overclaiming seems possible and a few cases in which deliberate falsifying of victories was prooven. But IMHO trying to quess motives is rather fruitless and I'm more interested in real results in unit level than that of individual level because the later is much harder to establish just because many times there was overclaiming and so many of especially LW docus were lost during the war.
Juha
fastmongrel
1st Sergeant
Very true I used to race motorbikes not in anyway proffesionally just as an enthusiastic amatuer. I was once third in a 3 way battle for position riding right up the tail pipe of the man in 2nd spot. The leader of our little pack of mid race warriors had got a small lead of about 20 feet he went into a 50mph bend too hot on the brakes lost the front wheel and both he and the bike did a cartwheel in the middle of the track. Apparently he missed me by inches,everyone in the crowd thought we were both gonners and couldnt believe I didnt even back off. I just carried on and rode till the race was flagged. My mate who meched for me asked me why I didnt take any action to avoid the bouncing bike and rider "What bike and who fell off" I never even noticed a bike upside down in the air right in front of me.
Kryten
Senior Airman
I watched a programme the other day about human observation, twelve people were brought together to watch a film being made and whilst waiting for the filming to start they were witnesses to an argument followed by a robbery, the argument/robbery was a setup but the witnesses had no idea they were being set up, once the incident was over the witnesses were interviewed privately, then as a group, they started with twelve differing accounts totally innacurate in details but when brought together thier accounts were slowly morphed into one "truth" about what happened untill they were all in agreement as to what they saw, the incident was then replayed to them and thier combined statement was so far out it would have been useless in a court of law, it ws at this point that two of the witnesses put thier hands up and admitted they were part of the setup, and thier job was to infiltrate inaccurate informatuion into the account, they succeded spectacularly when they started agreeing with each other, the other ten witnesses accounts were then manipulated by the flase information!
it proved three very important facts,
1, humans are rubbish at taking in details when subjected to suprise or stress.
2, the story of a group is manipulated by the strongest personalities of the group!
3, people actually convince themselves what is "fact" irrespective of what they really saw!
to say the duped ten were flabbergasted they were so wrong was an understatement!
it proved three very important facts,
1, humans are rubbish at taking in details when subjected to suprise or stress.
2, the story of a group is manipulated by the strongest personalities of the group!
3, people actually convince themselves what is "fact" irrespective of what they really saw!
to say the duped ten were flabbergasted they were so wrong was an understatement!
Mr Juha
Pattle claimed 50 kills but today we can say that actually scored about 30. However i have read , and not from anglosaxon sources, that he was a very skillful pilot and very very brave. I have great respect for him and i am very sad that his body has not been discovered to have a proper burial.
On 23/24 August 44 hartmann claimed 18 kills (284-301) . By implying that there were not such soviet losses you dont accuse him of overclaiming ,you accuse him of clear ,intentional cheat. So , a Staffelkapitan , (and the airforce s most succesful pilot), escorted by numerous members of its staffel , claims 18 ,scoring actually 0 , and gets away with this. No one notice nothing and everyone celebrates the 300. Or all 9/JG52 took part in the deception Your opinion about Luftwaffe must be lower than that for an African air force.
And a man of such low ethics later insists to lift the ban on operational flying , still later ignores orders to fly to safety, spents 10 years in prison without breaking, and its former commanders (who themselfs are reliable claimers but otherwise not very smart and have been decieved by him) ask him to join the post war Luftwaffe and give him the command of the first post war fighter wing .
The alternative scenario is that the soviets "corrected" the reports in order to devalue him. Everyone can judge which case is more realistic
bobbysocks
Chief Master Sergeant
kryten, you are correct. the human mind plays tricks on itself. part of my job is to conduct investigations and interview people. some people will outright lie to you but others will tell you what i call an "alternate truth". it never happened anywhere but in their mind. they do not intend to decieve but what they remember is 1) what they intended to do or 2) what they wanted to happen. it becomes very real to them and pushes that memory to the front of their minds. if you show them what really happened on video its like waking an amnesiac. i know many will chaulk this up to pure bunk or that the person is a very good liar. but i can say i experienced it first hand. i had to recount from memory a chain of events during a time of confusion. i was accurate up to a high degree but gave a false account for 2 steps. what i "remembered" was the course of action i had planned to take before things distracted me. it was a very good exercise. so i can certainly understand that happening in the stress of a combat situation. due to my job i have to attend courses and seminars and saw this video. i think it may have been posted here before. but it will prove some of the things...well just watch it and tell me if, with all the confusion me you get the count right??
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo
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Hello Jim
I also have high regard for Pattle, a great pilot and very responsible man, as seen his actions during his last days. How many kills he actually got I don't know. It seems that at least a couple Do 17s from KG 2 which Shores et al thought were damaged by him, Pattle claimed them as destroyed, were not damaged at right area to be Pattle's targets, that according to the excellent unit history of KG 2.
I didn't say that there were no Soviet losses, but clearly too few for even Hartmann's claims not to speak for all LW fighter pilots claims in that area on those 2 days. If you think that only most careful claimers were good leaders and effective commanders, it's your problem, I think man is far too complicated being to be squeezed so one-dimencional mould. Now on your conspiration theory, when that "correction" would have happened, in Soviet time, when the documents were out of reach from foreigners and "unreliable" Soviet citizens and when those in power thought that that would be the situation more or less forever, or after 1989?
BYW, you haven't yet answered my question how the soviet regimental CO would have got his replacement a/c if he did not inform his superiors of his losses.
Juha
I guess what you're saying does make sense Juha. And really any country treats the truth as conditional during wartime. There's info that you release to the public, and there's information only for a select few with the need to know, if the two agree, it's just a coincident.
Wasn't it Churchill who said "During war you protect the truth with a bodyguard of lies" or something similiar.
With Soviet records though, the truth was sometimes so well protected, that it's hard to tell when you're past the bodyguard of lies.
Wasn't it Churchill who said "During war you protect the truth with a bodyguard of lies" or something similiar.
With Soviet records though, the truth was sometimes so well protected, that it's hard to tell when you're past the bodyguard of lies.
GregP
Major
Juha,
You are still being vague; you still don't cite anything verifiable. Your suspicion that Hartmann's victories are bogus is inufficient. What factual documents, available to the world, contradict his victory awards?
I don't have to research it at all. I am satisfied with the facts to date. It is YOU who are not. If you want to dispute his record, do the rsearch and produce the results along with the soruces available to the public ... and then do it for everyone else, too. No selective victory elimination ... do it or don't do it, completely.
Otherwise, you have no basis for your claim that Hartmann's victories were false in any manner whatsoever except your own doubts. I don't have any and I doubt your claim of false Hartmammn victories.
But heck, you could be right. Why not go prove it and show us, with sources?
You are still being vague; you still don't cite anything verifiable. Your suspicion that Hartmann's victories are bogus is inufficient. What factual documents, available to the world, contradict his victory awards?
I don't have to research it at all. I am satisfied with the facts to date. It is YOU who are not. If you want to dispute his record, do the rsearch and produce the results along with the soruces available to the public ... and then do it for everyone else, too. No selective victory elimination ... do it or don't do it, completely.
Otherwise, you have no basis for your claim that Hartmann's victories were false in any manner whatsoever except your own doubts. I don't have any and I doubt your claim of false Hartmammn victories.
But heck, you could be right. Why not go prove it and show us, with sources?
Maximowitz
Tech Sergeant
Meanwhile, on a different forum, far far away..
German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others... - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum
Groundhog Day.
German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others... - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum
Groundhog Day.
GregP
Major
Intersting, escecially considering none of us have access to the documents that were alluded to but never identified. Sounds like more personal bias or else an unsubstantiated claim again. This is getting old quickly.
Any documents that are to be considered as proof must be identified, verified as genuine, and then gone through page by page ... not vagurely identified with claims of fraudulent victories. This one is even weaker than the one above.
C'mon, produce evidence that a claim is false or give it up. Making vague statements about Soviet losses won't do it. MANY Soviet planes were shot down every day for a long period of time before they got good planes and experienced pilots. The wartime Societ union was not a monument of truthfullness ... they rewrote history at Stalin's whim.
I'm afraid that Soviet documents are probably less than truthful, unless one could get the original reports from the field. Even then, the field commandrs might have been given orders to change the facts, and that comes from a Russian friend of mine in the 1980's. He visited from Moscow to buy communications modems and uplinks, and we talked extensively. He was a former Soviet MiG pilot (MiG-21's) and was almost in disbelief that he was sitting aorund a pool in the U.S.A. with a capitalist drinking beer and talking about our two countries' old enmity before the collapse of the Soviet Union. Therein lie several stories that are humorous, but unrelated to the subject.
Hartmann still has 352 until proven different by substianted and verified documents. I would not revise HIS totals unless there were a general review of ALL WWII victories to the same standard. Of course, if we did that, we'd eliminate most of the Japanese victories entirely becasue the Japanese government didn't track them at all. We got the Japanese totals through individual war diaries, and their kills didn't even have to go through a peer review! They were simply recorded in a war diary. Now THERE is a system guaranteed to overclaim!
Any documents that are to be considered as proof must be identified, verified as genuine, and then gone through page by page ... not vagurely identified with claims of fraudulent victories. This one is even weaker than the one above.
C'mon, produce evidence that a claim is false or give it up. Making vague statements about Soviet losses won't do it. MANY Soviet planes were shot down every day for a long period of time before they got good planes and experienced pilots. The wartime Societ union was not a monument of truthfullness ... they rewrote history at Stalin's whim.
I'm afraid that Soviet documents are probably less than truthful, unless one could get the original reports from the field. Even then, the field commandrs might have been given orders to change the facts, and that comes from a Russian friend of mine in the 1980's. He visited from Moscow to buy communications modems and uplinks, and we talked extensively. He was a former Soviet MiG pilot (MiG-21's) and was almost in disbelief that he was sitting aorund a pool in the U.S.A. with a capitalist drinking beer and talking about our two countries' old enmity before the collapse of the Soviet Union. Therein lie several stories that are humorous, but unrelated to the subject.
Hartmann still has 352 until proven different by substianted and verified documents. I would not revise HIS totals unless there were a general review of ALL WWII victories to the same standard. Of course, if we did that, we'd eliminate most of the Japanese victories entirely becasue the Japanese government didn't track them at all. We got the Japanese totals through individual war diaries, and their kills didn't even have to go through a peer review! They were simply recorded in a war diary. Now THERE is a system guaranteed to overclaim!
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drgondog
Major
I think there are three facts to deal with, 1.) there were a Lot of airmen who reported air combat as they experienced it, b.) the symtoms of an aircraft destroyed were variable and subject to observational error and 3.) there were a few 'claimers' that overstated the circumstances and received credit for claims that were bogus.
I don't believe Hartmann was one of the latter
I don't believe Hartmann was one of the latter
Well, I based my opinion on modern researchers who had used documentary material of both sides, or who had been actively in contact people who had familiar with other side's documents while they themselves have extensively used their own side documents. Books of few of them are now beginning to reach Western readers, like Rybin's and Egorov's books. Rybin is specialized on Far North, Egorov on Southern sector. As far I know Dikov, who had speciliazed on the AF of Soviet Baltic Fleet, has not published anything in English, but he helped much Christer Bergström at least in his BC RS Vol 2 and he seems to be very thorough researcher based on his questions and answers in one site specialized on Finnish AF. Just to name a few. Good Russian researchers seem to be very good. Of course not all modern Russian writers on aviation history are good, some have very nationalistic POV. So I don't need to do all myself I can rely on good modern research based on primary sources. IMHO combat history based on only the sources of one side would not give a full picture, one got as many "truths" of the battle as there were sides, think for ex air war around Guadalcanal 42-43. Even those based purely on US or on Australian promary materials would probably differ and the one based purely on Japanese material would give impression on totally different campaign even if locations would be same and time difference constant.
Juha
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Now Egorov mentioned material at TsAMO, ie the Archives of the Soviet Army, more specially they mentioned 5 VA (VA = Air Army) documents and those of air regiments (APs), the basic Soviet AF unit, of air divisions and air corps. I know that they have also went through the material of repair organisations and that of air craft industry because as in UK most badly damaged planes were sent back to factories to be repaired or dismantled for use in new production. IIRC in worst cases the damaged a/c went through 5 levels of damage assesments. As in RAF or in LW the first damage assesment could change later on.
Juha
GregP
Major
Juha,
I might join you in your beliefs if I had access to the source documents. The modern researchers who make claims againts Hartmann get their sources from where?
The only one I started to check had about 20 sources listed. I tried to check out the first five of the so-called sources and couldn't locate a single one of them or any proof of their existence. I decided the author should not have published without at least sources that can be foubd somewhere. Perhaps thety exist in the corner of a large library in Moscow. If so, I cannot corroborate them or even check to see if they exist.
Therein lies the main source my doubt ... inability to verify sources.
I might join you in your beliefs if I had access to the source documents. The modern researchers who make claims againts Hartmann get their sources from where?
The only one I started to check had about 20 sources listed. I tried to check out the first five of the so-called sources and couldn't locate a single one of them or any proof of their existence. I decided the author should not have published without at least sources that can be foubd somewhere. Perhaps thety exist in the corner of a large library in Moscow. If so, I cannot corroborate them or even check to see if they exist.
Therein lies the main source my doubt ... inability to verify sources.
As I wrote, the army docus, incl. those of VVS KA ie the Army AF, are stored at TsAMO, in Podolsk near Moscow, naval aviation docus might well be in St Petersburgh at Central Naval Archieves, not sure of that. At least most of material at TsAMO is also open to foreign researchers, I personally know a couple Finns who had used them and know that there are others. There is in net a database of VVS pilot losses, I cannot remember if Nacal Aviation and PVO (Interceptors) aircrews are included. I have looked it only once because of my very limited knowledge on Russian, but IIRC it contains digi photos on original docus.
So if you bothered to contact TsAMO to get a permit, if that is still requested, travel to Moscow, hire a quide, because the archives were not as user friendly as for ex. the NA at Kew, you can check the docus. Not much difference to that of how one had to do several years ago with for ex. RAF docus. Of course one didn't need a guide, if one could read English and had some understanding how to look docus, and the staff of then PRO was very helpful. I know, I made my first visit to PRO in mid 80s.
Or you might take a look on the database, IIRC it is organized by names or by regiments, so you must have some info on VVS KA organization and unit locations to use it effectively.
Juha
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