Ta 152 Ha aerial victories
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GregP
Major
Depending on what sources you choose to believe, the Ta 152 had two to four aerial losses and seven to ten aerial victories. The most likely score is seven victories and four losses.
There were 20 Ta 152H-0 (pre-production) delivered to Erprobungskommando (test command) in Nov 44, but they never saw combat. The Ta 152H-1 was delivered to JG 301 on 27 Jan 45 and the first Ta 152 mission was on 2 Mar 45.
Four victories were by Josef Keil from 1 Mar 45 to 21 Apr 45. Two of Keil's victories were Soviet Yak-9s. His other two were supposed to have been a P-47 (10 Apr 45) and a P-51 (1 Mar 45). He had another P-51 on 31 Dec 44, but was not flying a Ta 152 at the time. Willi Reschke had three victories, one of which was a Tempest that stalled and crashed while maneuvering at low altitude. While Rerschke technically didn't shoot it down, it generally counts as a victory when an opponent crashes in a dogfight. The other two were Soviet Yak-9s. You can find these on the internet easily.
The four losses were Hptm. Hermann Stahl, killed on 11 April 1945; Obfw. Sepp Sattler, killed on 14 April 1945; two unknown JG11 pilots, downed by Spitfires in the last days of April 1945 during transfer from Neustadt-Glewe to Leck airfield.
The Ta 152 aircraft was a good one, but it was not a wonderplane, being specialized for high-altitude and never really getting a chance to fight up there. The Ta 152 wasn't especially a great fighter at low to medium altitudes when compared with Allied contemporaries, but was one of the better ones up high. At altitude, it was very well-matched with the P-47M and N, though both P-47s were faster, and the P-51 wasn't exactly far behind. The Ta 152 had the potential to be the fastest up high, but was never operated with the high-altitude boost system (GM-1: Nitrous Oxide) working and fueled up. The system was installed, but never supplied with GM-1 in service.
There were about 150 Ta 152 airframes completed, but only about 49 - 67 were delivered, 67 being the most-quoted number, and never more than about 15 - 20 were operational at any one time.
Edit: changed the number to 67.
There were 20 Ta 152H-0 (pre-production) delivered to Erprobungskommando (test command) in Nov 44, but they never saw combat. The Ta 152H-1 was delivered to JG 301 on 27 Jan 45 and the first Ta 152 mission was on 2 Mar 45.
Four victories were by Josef Keil from 1 Mar 45 to 21 Apr 45. Two of Keil's victories were Soviet Yak-9s. His other two were supposed to have been a P-47 (10 Apr 45) and a P-51 (1 Mar 45). He had another P-51 on 31 Dec 44, but was not flying a Ta 152 at the time. Willi Reschke had three victories, one of which was a Tempest that stalled and crashed while maneuvering at low altitude. While Rerschke technically didn't shoot it down, it generally counts as a victory when an opponent crashes in a dogfight. The other two were Soviet Yak-9s. You can find these on the internet easily.
The four losses were Hptm. Hermann Stahl, killed on 11 April 1945; Obfw. Sepp Sattler, killed on 14 April 1945; two unknown JG11 pilots, downed by Spitfires in the last days of April 1945 during transfer from Neustadt-Glewe to Leck airfield.
The Ta 152 aircraft was a good one, but it was not a wonderplane, being specialized for high-altitude and never really getting a chance to fight up there. The Ta 152 wasn't especially a great fighter at low to medium altitudes when compared with Allied contemporaries, but was one of the better ones up high. At altitude, it was very well-matched with the P-47M and N, though both P-47s were faster, and the P-51 wasn't exactly far behind. The Ta 152 had the potential to be the fastest up high, but was never operated with the high-altitude boost system (GM-1: Nitrous Oxide) working and fueled up. The system was installed, but never supplied with GM-1 in service.
There were about 150 Ta 152 airframes completed, but only about 49 - 67 were delivered, 67 being the most-quoted number, and never more than about 15 - 20 were operational at any one time.
Edit: changed the number to 67.
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- Thread starter
- #3
Ah got it but did keil flew the ta 152 in 10/JG301?
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GregP
Major
- Thread starter
- #5
Wait if the first ta 152 mission was on 2nd march then he couldnt have shot down the p-51 , or maybe he did idk
GregP
Major
Therein lies a conundrum. Was the first mission on 2 Mar or was it on 1 Mar? Depends on who you believe.
Either way, the war record of the Ta 152 wasn't that good. But, that is not a knock on the Ta 152.
It had more to do with it coming out right when the Luftwaffe collapsed amid raids by 1,000 bombers escorted by 700 fighters than to any shortcomings of the Ta 152 aircraft. The main Ta 152 bad points were very few delivered to combat units and starting it's combat life basically around April 1945 when the Luftwaffe collapsed as a fighting force.
Either way, the war record of the Ta 152 wasn't that good. But, that is not a knock on the Ta 152.
It had more to do with it coming out right when the Luftwaffe collapsed amid raids by 1,000 bombers escorted by 700 fighters than to any shortcomings of the Ta 152 aircraft. The main Ta 152 bad points were very few delivered to combat units and starting it's combat life basically around April 1945 when the Luftwaffe collapsed as a fighting force.
- Thread starter
- #7
Alright
Erich
the old Sage
III./JG 301 accepted 6 TA 152 H-0's. operational flight on Feb. 7, 45, Keil flew # 3. Feb 9th Stabschwarm flew it's first mission. 2 Ta's flew on Feb 14th - Black 2 and Red 1. Feb. 21st a B-17 was claimed shot down by Stabschwarm. March 1st Keil claims a P-51 flying Red 1. W. Reschke joins Geschwaderstab March 13th in Black 3. L. Bracht logs indicate a ground attack op 1 kg frags. on April 1st. April 9th 7 Ta's on hand. Keil takes on 4 Mustangs in # 15 flying in Stabschwarm III./JG 301, Ta 152.
well some more info for you ~
well some more info for you ~
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- #9
Interesting wasnt it yellow 1 and not red 1?
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Eric is most knowledgeable in this field, believe what he says....
- Thread starter
- #11
Alright i read about him in some ta 152 topicsEric is most knowledgeable in this field, believe what he says....
Erich
the old Sage
Gents I have copies of Reschke and Loos Flugbuch if you have any questions .... by the way Keil and Bracht's Flugbuch which I do not own and Cescotti's as well were used in an article that does correct some mistakes in Reschkes book ~
Nick Beale
Recruit
The most accurate source the Ta 152 in action is almost certainly the one published in 2019 in Luftwaffe im Focus Edition No. 29 (for those who don't know it, it's a bilingual German/English publication). The author, Axel Urbanke, takes great care to resolve the contradictions and discrepnancies in the previously published accounts.
- Thread starter
- #14
Ah
Erich
the old Sage
yes LW in Focus is excellent I used it as cross reference with Reshke's book and Flubuchs besides private notes from others.
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- #16
Aah i once heard that keil diddnt shot down a p51, But a p47
GregP
Major
According to several sources, the Ta 152 still has from 7 to 10 victories against 2 to 4 losses.
10-to-2 is 5 : 1
7-to-4 is 1.75 : 1
So, no matter how you window dress it, the results were pedestrian at best and rather mediocre at worst.
Again, it has a LOT more to do with timing and numbers than to any fault of the Ta 152 which, by all accounts, was a very good airplane if things in the airplane were all working correctly. That was by no means a sure thing as the few delivered airplanes were basically little better than prototypes and had virtually no spare parts logistics chain. Any airplane that broke WAS spare parts. Therein lies the main point.
It has been stated several places that, when the war ended, there were exactly two Ta 152Cs left operational. I have never seen a primary source for that "fact," but I believe I saw it in William Greene's works. Whether or not it is true, there cannot have been many left running since there weren't many to start with. I tend to believe that 2 running at the end was about as expected, and so the statement meets the "is it reasonable?" criterion. Even if the actual number was twice the reported one, 4 airplanes weren't going to have any effect on the war. In fact, neither were the original 43 - 63 or so that were delivered, given the state of the Luftwaffe in Jan - Apr 45. They were still fighting in Jan - Feb but, by Apr had reached the end of their effectiveness as a fighting force.
To check that, look at table 166 in the Statistical Digest of World War Two. We destroyed 300 - 1,000 German airplanes per month from Apr 43 to Mar 45. In Apr 45, we destroyed 4,367 in one month! In May 45, we destroyed 28 and that was the last of them. The reason we destroyed 4,367 in April was they were mostly all sitting on the ground without fuel.
There was no shortage of fuel. The problem was that, with 700 - 1,000 fighters returning from escort missions down low, nothing could move on the roads without attracting fatal attention from marauding fighters. The Germans simply couldn't get the fuel from where it was to the airplanes, and they mostly sat on the ground and were hit there.
So, the Ta 152 just happened to fall at exactly the wrong time in the war to make a difference.
The best mass-produced German fighter of the piston variety was easily the Fw 190D series. They built some 1,852 of the D-0 through D-13, with 1,805 Fw 190D-9s built. The rest were onesy-twosy numbers, with 17 D-13s being the highest of the rest.
10-to-2 is 5 : 1
7-to-4 is 1.75 : 1
So, no matter how you window dress it, the results were pedestrian at best and rather mediocre at worst.
Again, it has a LOT more to do with timing and numbers than to any fault of the Ta 152 which, by all accounts, was a very good airplane if things in the airplane were all working correctly. That was by no means a sure thing as the few delivered airplanes were basically little better than prototypes and had virtually no spare parts logistics chain. Any airplane that broke WAS spare parts. Therein lies the main point.
It has been stated several places that, when the war ended, there were exactly two Ta 152Cs left operational. I have never seen a primary source for that "fact," but I believe I saw it in William Greene's works. Whether or not it is true, there cannot have been many left running since there weren't many to start with. I tend to believe that 2 running at the end was about as expected, and so the statement meets the "is it reasonable?" criterion. Even if the actual number was twice the reported one, 4 airplanes weren't going to have any effect on the war. In fact, neither were the original 43 - 63 or so that were delivered, given the state of the Luftwaffe in Jan - Apr 45. They were still fighting in Jan - Feb but, by Apr had reached the end of their effectiveness as a fighting force.
To check that, look at table 166 in the Statistical Digest of World War Two. We destroyed 300 - 1,000 German airplanes per month from Apr 43 to Mar 45. In Apr 45, we destroyed 4,367 in one month! In May 45, we destroyed 28 and that was the last of them. The reason we destroyed 4,367 in April was they were mostly all sitting on the ground without fuel.
There was no shortage of fuel. The problem was that, with 700 - 1,000 fighters returning from escort missions down low, nothing could move on the roads without attracting fatal attention from marauding fighters. The Germans simply couldn't get the fuel from where it was to the airplanes, and they mostly sat on the ground and were hit there.
So, the Ta 152 just happened to fall at exactly the wrong time in the war to make a difference.
The best mass-produced German fighter of the piston variety was easily the Fw 190D series. They built some 1,852 of the D-0 through D-13, with 1,805 Fw 190D-9s built. The rest were onesy-twosy numbers, with 17 D-13s being the highest of the rest.
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- Thread starter
- #18
Also few fw190Ds also gotten ta152 tails
But i dont think it whould improve the performance
The one problem was the 190ds were using fw190As heavy wings, so ta152 h was made to fix that fw190d high alt maneuvrability issue
Interesting.
Do you have a source?
What were the respective weights of the wings?
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- #20
I think fw190 d9 of jg26 brown 4 got them the rest were
Abandoned for scrap
Ah and the those were wooden tails
But about the wing weight am not sure
Since i dont have much knowdledge bout it
But guessed
