Best Jet of WW2?

[FLYBOYJ]

If it was able to be documented, early encounters with Trans sonic and super sonic flight should be counted, the problem is when first encountered few lived to tell about it.

One thing that many of these early reports had in common was the reporting of the nose dipping, commonly called super sonic dip. This was common on many 1st generation jet aircraft when exceeding the speed of sound. The nose would dip, there would be a loss of elevator effectiveness, then everything would "straighten out." This was mentioned in some of the ME-262 pilot reports, both by German and American pilots. The only way you're going to experience super sonic dip is to go super sonic, or pretty darn close to it!

 

[delcyros]

I disagree. The nose dip of the Me-262 occurs at speeds beyond Mach 0.86 because of the shifted center of weight (thanks to transsonic airflow on the upperside of the wing). This could be misunderstood as an supersonic dip (which could occur on 0 and 1st generation jets, also). However their is another point which implies that they really hit Mach: The controlls. Between Mach 0.88 (0.86 because of the dip) and Mach 1.0 you loose controll of the elevators (Me-262 A-1). But controlls have been regained after considerable acceleration in a dive (at full throttle in case of Mutke and US pilots). Wind tunnel testings confirms that controlls come back into effect after exceeding Mach 1 (which is confirmed by US pilots, also). The problem was that the test pilots tried to close the speed slowly in a dive (which implies really huge stress to the airframe), while some pilots accidently (Mutke) and in a rapid way accelerated. I still wonder if the airframe of the Me-262 can contain this stress (I really doubt) or is more probable to disintegrate.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Interesting stuff.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I disagree. The nose dip of the Me-262 occurs at speeds beyond Mach 0.86 because of the shifted center of weight (thanks to transsonic airflow on the upperside of the wing). This could be misunderstood as an supersonic dip (which could occur on 0 and 1st generation jets, also). However their is another point which implies that they really hit Mach: The controlls. Between Mach 0.88 (0.86 because of the dip) and Mach 1.0 you loose controll of the elevators (Me-262 A-1). But controlls have been regained after considerable acceleration in a dive (at full throttle in case of Mutke and US pilots). Wind tunnel testings confirms that controlls come back into effect after exceeding Mach 1 (which is confirmed by US pilots, also). The problem was that the test pilots tried to close the speed slowly in a dive (which implies really huge stress to the airframe), while some pilots accidently (Mutke) and in a rapid way accelerated. I still wonder if the airframe of the Me-262 can contain this stress (I really doubt) or is more probable to disintegrate.

Interesting - I flew at high mach numbers in a T-33 without tip tanks and I could tell you I thought the wings were going to shake off, the elevators seemed to buzz as well. The only other aircraft I flew in that approached and exceeded mach 1 was an F-4 - you felt nothing, just saw a slight jump in the airpseed indicator and mach meter, but that's another story!

 

[Nonskimmer]

Sounds like you've been around a bit alright, FLYBOYJ.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Sounds like you've been around a bit alright, FLYBOYJ.

Thanks - It's been a few years since I was close to the tomato truck! \/

 

[delcyros]

Sounds interesting.
The problems with the controlls have been a major problem to succesfully build supersonic planes (like F-4). In the timeframe between 1944 and 1947 we have seen several attempts to overcome this:
The later Spitfire incorporated free bending rudder design, which in theory greatly reduced force effects at transsonic speeds.
The Miles M.52 design used the first single part rudders (like the later F-86).
The DFS 346 used special structural reinforcement and power assist for conventional rudder design (...and still suffered from shaking much...)
Some very advanced designs (DM-1 for example) even used tailles delta wing designs...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

This is off topic here (well sort of it involves a Me-262. But it seams that the Me-262 is flying again. It is a reproduction but still very interesting and it flew the last time on Mar. 9 2005.

These are all from the Stormbirds website.

09 FEB 05

STILL MORE GOOD NEWS! Yesterday turned out to be a day of significant progress for us. Following the successful "wheels up" outing, White 1 was given a thorough once-over and sent back out onto the runway for test flight number nine!



Before this rather monumental day was through, White 1 had logged yet another 60 minutes aloft, reaching a speed of 360 knots in the bright Seattle sunshine!

08 FEB 05

MORE GOOD NEWS! Test flight number eight took place today just before 1400 hours (local time).



We are especially pleased to report that today's sortie marked our first successful "wheels up" flight in the White 1 airplane (see photo, above). To our relief and delight, the gear cycled flawlessly while aloft, validating the careful redesign and rebuild effort that had been underway since our January 2002 landing mishap. Touchdown and rollout were once again picture perfect. The aircraft also made two 90° turns at the end of the landing roll with no problems whatsoever. Today's flight was once again 50 minutes in duration.

We can safely call this one a true milestone for the Project as we draw ever closer to completion of the FAA flight test requirement.



06 JAN 03

AVWEEK REPORT Courtesy of the Aviation Week Space Technology web site, here's how writer Jim Goodall summed up the events of our first flight:

The first of two reproduction Me262A jet fighters flew for 35 minute on December 20 from Paine field near Seattle. The pilot, Wolfgang Czaia, said the airplane was airborne after a takeoff run of 14 seconds, lifting off at 110 knots.

Czaia left the gear down during the flight as a safety precaution. "The airplane's handling qualities were excellent in all three axes, and I could trim the aircraft to fly straight and level hands-off," he said.

"The Messerschmitt's aerodynamically-operated inboard/outboard leading edge slats worked well, fully extending at 150 knots, and retracting fully at 165 knots, and there was minimum pitch change during flap extension/retraction" Czaia said.

Before returning to Paine Field, Czaia set up a 3-degree glide path at 140 knots to check handling on final approach, slowly reducing airspeed and increasing angle of attach until the airplane stalled at 100 knots. "There was only a mild pitch-down at the stall break and I had good aileron control at the stall," he said.

For landing, Czaia flew the final approach with the airplane trimmed for 125 knots, slowly reducing power to touchdown at 108 knots. Czaia said the second flight is tentatively scheduled for late this week and will include retracting the landing gear.

Future flights will expand the airplane's flight envelope slowly and focus on determining the Me262's critical Mach number, which is estimated to be Mach .082. The jet is powered by two GE J-85 turbojet engines each rated at 2,859 lb. static thrust.

THE LEGEND FLIES AGAIN!

We are delighted to announce that White 1 took off this afternoon at 1400 local on a 35 minute test flight with pilot Wolf Czaia at the controls.

The flight was conducted "wheels down" at 2000 feet with a L-39 chase plane in trail. By all accounts, the flight was a complete success. Czaia rated the jet's handling qualities as "excellent."

A crowd of some 50 people had gathered to witness the event, and as such, were treated to the first sighting of a Me 262 aloft in more than five decades.
http://www.stormbirds.com/project/general/updates.htm

 

[cheddar cheese]

Great! 8) Something about that 262 doesnt look right though. Maybe because its a two seater.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yes it is a 2 seat varient. They have several other varients that are flying now including single seaters. Even though it is repro and uses different engines I think it is great!

 

[FLYBOYJ]

You're right but with jet warbirds (even if they are a reproduction) its always desirable to go with 2 seats - many of the jet warbird owners I know provide "Introductory Jet Instruction" for a hefty fee. They do get a lot of takers, so a project like this could also be a money maker!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I think the whole idea of remaking Warbirds especially ones that no longer exist in flying condition is great. It gives a newer generation a chance to see them first hand and show them how great and graceful these aircraft are. There is a company here in Germany called Flugwerk that is making Fw-190A's and Me-109G's. They are really great and you can get them for about $500,000.

 

[evangilder]

If I had that kind of money, I would buy one. Maybe not the orignal, but the history of an airplane like that would be something. Could you imagine the looks you would get after stepping out of one of those to go into an airport cafe? I would be tempted to learn German for that!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I want to buy a Me-109 and a Fw-190 from them. First I have to build my house first and then convince my wife to let me finance my life away.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I want to buy a Me-109 and a Fw-190 from them. First I have to build my house first and then convince my wife to let me finance my life away.

 

[evangilder]

Well, when hell does freeze over, then we can meet some place for some schnitzel before we do some formation flying!

 

[Erich]

the two seater cracked up on landing and am not sure if it has flown again. There are enough fabricated parts from the originals to create 6 a/c. The single seaters are postponed indefinately. Have been on this whole monstrous project since it's inception as I know several of the chaps that run stormbirds....

off to pay the crap tax man.....yee haw

E ~

 

[FLYBOYJ]

You could by an L-29 in decent condition for about 40K. Fuel is about $300.00 and hour

 

[delcyros]

There are some interesting projects, too:
In Fürstenwalde / Berlin was a employmental project called "Historischer Flugzeugbau" (historical airplane construction), which managed to build historic airplanes, also. They started with the famous Etrich Taube of 1911, continued with a huge Farman biplane and a Albatros C-II twoseater. All was done properly, these airplanes are in flyable conditions (I think a few have been seen at ILA, too.), except maybe the Farman, there have been problems with the czech made airscrew. Next project was a Fokker D-VII, it remained unfinished (but in progressive stage of construction) because other organizations like "Flugwerke" (to name one) argued them to be kind of concurrence. By the way they introduced justice, Fürstenwalde stopped the project. It is really a shame.And it is interesting to note that this happens directly after it was known that Historischer Flugzeugbau planned to build a Focke Wulf-190 A-4. The whole airfield (including all planes of Historischer Flugzeugbau) was sold in 2002 to a very unthrusty private for no more than 50.000 ? (!). I am convinced that these planes will be seen the next months on the market...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Well, when hell does freeze over, then we can meet some place for some schnitzel before we do some formation flying!

Hell yeah I'll take the Me-109 and you can have the Fw-190. Man that would be fun, but as you said hell has to freeze over.

the two seater cracked up on landing and am not sure if it has flown again. There are enough fabricated parts from the originals to create 6 a/c. The single seaters are postponed indefinately. Have been on this whole monstrous project since it's inception as I know several of the chaps that run stormbirds....

That sucks, why has teh single seaters been postponed?

You could by an L-29 in decent condition for about 40K. Fuel is about $300.00 and hour

Is that it?

Actually it costs us about $2000 an hour to fly our Blackhawks.