Best ship buster.....

[davebender]

What will those machineguns do besides scratch the paint? They certainly cannot penetrate warship armor. Could they even penetrate the hull of an ocean going merchant vessel when fired from an angle?

 

[BombTaxi]

I have seen several members here claim that .50cal would penetrate destroyer hulls - it would certainly make a mess of exposed or lightly shielded AA gun mounts and the like. You won't sink a cruiser with that battery, but I think a barge or small merchantman would certainly suffer some damage.

 

[syscom3]

I have seen several members here claim that .50cal would penetrate destroyer hulls - it would certainly make a mess of exposed or lightly shielded AA gun mounts and the like. You won't sink a cruiser with that battery, but I think a barge or small merchantman would certainly suffer some damage.

The .50's could sink a barge or small merchant ship (like a lugger). But for the larger ships, it was perfect for sweeping the decks of light AA. And that it did with a fury.

Then the 500 or 1000 pund bombs did the rest.

 

[tomo pauk]

The Battle of Bisamrck sea realy places B-25 high at the ship-busters list:

Battle of the Bismarck Sea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If one dont trust the Wiki on this, just follow the links.

 

[Amsel]

.50 Caliber Mg's are used to strafe anti aircraft positions and the bridge. By doing this it allows for a better chance that a bomb will get through to the ship. You would be surprised at the effectiveness of .50 cals in battling ships. The USN used their MG's numerous times and places to turn ships and even drive them away from capturing downed pilots. One could also study the Battle off Samar and see the effectiveness and damage against capital ships as well as their screens by desperate Wildcat and Avenger pilots who had no ordinance.

 

[comiso90]

The Battle of Bisamrck sea realy places B-25 high at the ship-busters list:

Battle of the Bismarck Sea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If one dont trust the Wiki on this, just follow the links.

Cool post! I havent heard about that for a long time... That would make a great video game or "Battlefield 360" episode.

.

 

[davebender]

Desperate Wildcat and Avenger pilots who had no ordinance

That sounds odd to me. The 14 CVEs and 450 aircraft of the USN 7th Fleet were providing air support for the amphibious landings on Leyte. You cannot provide air support without ordinance. I'd hazard a guess that the CVEs were stocked to the gunwales with 500 lb bombs. Something a lot more lethal then .50cal MG bullets.

 

[Amsel]

That sounds odd to me. The 14 CVEs and 450 aircraft of the USN 7th Fleet were providing air support for the amphibious landings on Leyte. You cannot provide air support without ordinance. I'd hazard a guess that the CVEs were stocked to the gunwales with 500 lb bombs. Something a lot more lethal then .50cal MG bullets.

Guess you will have to study the Battle off Samar. Nothing odd about it at all in the days before good radar. The Japanese Center Fleet surprises a squadron of Jeep Carriers and Destroyers. Steaming at twenty knots through the narrow strait between Luzon and Samar islands, Japans Center Force steamed into the Philippine Sea at thirty-five minutes past midnight. In addition to the battleships Yamato, Haruna, Kongo, and Nagato, there were the heavy cruisers Chikuma, Chokai, Haguro, Kumano, Suzuya, and Tone, the smaller-gunned light cruisers Noshiro and Yahagi, and eleven destroyers. It is one of the most heart wrenching sea battles in American history. CVE's are stocked up with bombs for sure. But CVE's were not meant to be 20 miles from the biggest battleships in history.
Obviously not all aircraft could be loaded with bombs in such an emergency and definantly no one is landing to rearm on the CVE's.

 

[Amsel]

"In no engagement of its entire history," Samuel Eliot Morison has written, "has the United States Navy shown more gallantry, guts and gumption than in those two morning hours between 0730 and 0930 off Samar."

Rear Admiral Clifton Sprague had his own observation on the battle: "The failure of the enemy … to completely wipe out all vessels of this task unit can be attributed to our successful smoke screen, our torpedo counterattack, continuous harassment of enemy by bomb, torpedo and strafing air attacks, timely maneuvers, and the definite partiality of Almighty God."

.

 

[Macchi]

The PBY Catalina and PBM Mariner deserve mention.

 

[syscom3]

The and PBM Mariner deserve mention.

As ship busters?

 

[beaupower32]

TBM Avenger is what i would vote for.

 

[Watanbe]

Bristol Beaufighter, however I am slightly bias, its probably my favourite plane!

 

[davebender]

Time for a reality check concerning the Battle off Samar. The USN had an overwhelming amount of naval strike aircraft available. That is why the Japanese commander broke off the attack.

Battle off Samar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
TAFFY 3 was the only CVE group to come under Japanese attack. The CVEs of TAFFY 1 and TAFFY 2 were free to operate aircraft as fast as they could land, be re-armed and take off.

Order of Battle - Battle off Samar - 25 October 1944
No Japanese aircraft were involved in the attack. So 7th Fleet has the luxury of operating only strike aircraft. Let's add them up.
TAFFY 1.
9 x TBM. CVE26.
9 x TBM. CVE27.
0 x TBM. CVE28. Absent from the fight.
9 x TBF TBM. CVE29.
10 x TBM. CVE80.
.....37 x torpedo bombers total

TAFFY 2.
12 x TBM. CVE62.
12 x TBM. CVE61.
11 x TBM. CVE77.
11 x TBM. CVE76.
12 x TBM. CVE78.
11 x TBM. CVE79.
.....69 x torpedo bombers total.

TAFFY3. These re-arm on the other two TAFFYs.
12 x TBM. CVE70.
12 x TBM. CVE63.
12 x TBM. CVE66.
12 x TBF TBM. CVE68.
12 x TBM. CVE71.
12 x TBM. CVE73.
.....72 x torpedo bombers total.

107 x torpedo bombers in TAFFY 1 and TAFFY 2.
72 x torpedo bombers in TAFFY3.
.....179 torpedo bombers total.

Order of Battle - Pearl Harbor - 7 December 1941
For comparison purposes, the Japanese CVs had a total of 144 torpedo bombers available for the December 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor.

Midway order of battle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For comparison purposes, the Japanese CV striking force at Midway had a total of 81 torpedo bombers.

Sinking of Prince of Wales and Repulse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For comparison purposes, Japan used 34 torpedo bombers to sink the two RN dreadnoughts of TF Z on 10 Dec 1941. (the 54 IJN level bombers were ineffective).

Battle of Taranto - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For comparison purposes, the RN used 11 Swordfish torpedo bombers to attack Taranto during November 1940 (plus 10 Swordfish level bombers).

 

[Lucky13]

PBY "Black Cats" are some of favorite maschines in ship busting etc. "Flip" Anderson (VP-33) sank two Japanese DE's on the night 5th September '44 at Zamboanga.....

 

[Amsel]

Time for a reality check concerning the Battle off Samar. The USN had an overwhelming amount of naval strike aircraft available. That is why the Japanese commander broke off the attack.
).

Your numbers are right but those are just numbers. Maybe I did not make myself clear enough; and I apologize for that. The Japanese commander broke off his attack due to American air superiority as well as his assumption that the USN heavies were close by to Taffy 3.

According to a huge amount of pilots reports during the key times of battle; while the IJN heavies were in pursuit of Taffy 3, theu USN pilots of Taffy 3 and 4 were not armed with ordinance for an attack. Some had ordinance already on their a/c for daily missions but the ordinance was used up quickly and did not stop the attack of course. A Japanese commander even stated that the Wildcats and Avengers were resorting to strafing runs and even dry runs when their dud torpedos didn't effect any damage. This same Japanese commander was shot in the leg by .50 caliber rounds when the Wildcats repeatedly strafed the bridge of his heavy cruiser.

Will elaborate more later because I am at work. Again I would encourage a in depth look at the first few hours of the attack to get a better gist of the battle.

 

[davebender]

Looking at the Battle off Samar I would disagree. Because of the short flight distance the USN CVEs were able to launch hundreds of TBM sorties. They got some hits but the overall hit percentage was pretty low compared to British, German, Italian and Japanese torpedo bombers.

 

[Amsel]

I would vote for the Avenger as well as the Dauntless, though the Dauntless seemed to be better in tandem with the Avenger. And vice versa.

The CVE's of Taffy 3 could not be used to trap planes due to them being under intense shellfire and one evn being sunk. The USN pilots had to land at an USAAF base and essentially take it over so they wouldn't have to ditch due to lack of fuel. As a matter of fact the first Avenger pilot that landed at that field had to get fuel and bombs at pistol point due to lack of cooperation at first ( the same pilot who was going inverted and shooting his pistol at the bridge when he ran out of .50 cal.). After they got things worked out then the rest of Taffy 3 and 4 could land at the unfinished field, some crash landing due to being an unfinished field. In the meantime Taffy 3 was getting run down by Kurita's Center Force with only three Destroyers and a Destroyer Escort to screen. During the initial air attack on the Center Force the pilots dropped ordinance and then made dry runs and strafed the ships damaging and exploding torpedos, destroying gunsights and mantles, starting fires and shooting personal(including command on bridge) with .50 caliber fire. Not as effective as bombs or torpedos but it worked to slow down the pursuers from sinking every Jeep Carrier in Taffy 3.

 

[mikamee14]

TBM Avenger is my favorite, GREAT PLANE!

 

[renrich]

Unless you are going to call a sub a boat instead of a ship, the B24 deserves mention. I don't know the exact number but the B24s (and Sunderland and B17s) sank many u boats in the Atlantic. The B24 was the most effective.