Best ship buster.....

[comiso90]

range aside, which was more effective the PB4Y-2 Privateer or B-24?

 

[renrich]

I don't believe the Privateer got into the war until late but they were virtually the same AC.

 

[davebender]

Taffy 2 official report.
HyperWar: Battle Experience: Battle for Leyte Gulf

Sorties for strikes 1 to 4.
Armed with SAP bombs and aerial torpedoes.
80 x VT
55 x VF.

Strike # 5.
Armed with GP bombs and rockets.
11 x VT.
8 x VF.

Strike # 6.
26 x VT. Armed with 500 lb GP bombs.
24 x VF. Armed with 250 lb GP bombs.

 

[BombTaxi]

Unless you are going to call a sub a boat instead of a ship, the B24 deserves mention. I don't know the exact number but the B24s (and Sunderland and B17s) sank many u boats in the Atlantic. The B24 was the most effective.

I don't think all that many Fortresses saw service over the Atlantic, but the Liberator, Catalina and Sunderland did sterling service, as did the Wellington and Whitley after their usefulness as night bombers was exhausted.

 

[Amsel]

In the meantime, the first desperate strikes by the U.S. carrier planes had been made on the pursuing enemy. Dropping the small bombs and depth charges with which they had been loaded in expectation of routine missions, the Navy planes harassed the Japanese ships for twenty minutes. Bombs soon gone, they strafed with machine-gun fire. And even when their ammunition was exhausted, the pilots continued to buzz the enemy, hoping to bluff the Nipponese ships off course and give Taffy 3 a chance to escape. Only when their fuel ran low did they leave. Unable to land on their own carriers because the ships were heading downwind, the Taffy 3 planes were forced to rearm and refuel at an airstrip on the Leyte beachhead to the west, and on the flattops of Taffy 2 to the southeast. Joined by other Wildcat fighters and Avenger torpedo bombers from Taffy 2, they soon returned to the attack.

By WILFRED P. DEAC

You and me are talking about the same battle but different times. You are talking about the end of the battle and I am talking of the harrowing beginning.

 

[Glider]

Nice link on the Battle for Leyte Gulf, thanks

 

[davebender]

I suspect that USN torpedo bombers were better then what battle statistics indicate. They were fatally handicapped by the Mk13 aerial torpedo. When only 31% of aerial torpedoes run properly no torpedo bomber can be successful. If the USN had used Japanese Type 91 or Italian F200 aerial torpedoes then the IJN fleet at Samar would likely have been wiped out.
USA Torpedoes of World War II

In mid-1943, an analysis of 105 torpedoes dropped at speeds in excess of 150 knots found that 36 percent ran cold (did not start), 20 percent sank, 20 percent had poor deflection performance, 18 percent gave unsatisfactory depth performance, 2 percent ran on the surface and only 31 percent gave a satisfactory run. The total exceeds 100 percent as many torpedoes had more than one defect.

 

[JoeB]

I suspect that USN torpedo bombers were better then what battle statistics indicate. They were fatally handicapped by the Mk13 aerial torpedo. When only 31% of aerial torpedoes run properly no torpedo bomber can be successful.

But those statistics were from 1943, and wouldn't have been relevant to Leyte Gulf in late 1944. By then the USN used completely re-engineered versions of the Mk 13, with ring tail for better water entry stabilit, 'pickle barrel' shock absorbing head, and many detailed internal changes ruggedizing various components found to have cause most failures. This was the result of a systematic effort at Cal Tech to root out Mk 13 problems. Those torpeodes reached the fleet earlier in 1944. The late war Mk 13's had much higher allowable speed and height of release, and were reliable.

Of the 80 TBM's in the first 4 strikes from Taffy 2, 47 carried torpedoes (15/15, 16/16, 5/12 and 11/37 respectively). 42 were actually claimed to be dropped, plus 19 known by Taffy 1 (Santee's number unknown) and at least 7 by Taffy 3 (Kitkun Bay and Fasnshaw Bay unknown), 68 known total for the day. See "The Little Giants" by William Y'Blood.

The major Japanese casualties in these attacks were, sunk:
Chikuma: hit 3 times by TBM torpedoes
Chokai: seriously damaged by own torpedo explosion from US 5" fire, finished off by 500# bombs
Suzuya: lost a propeller from near miss by 500#, then another 500# hear miss detonated own torpedoes
damaged included:
Haguro: hit by 500#
Nagato: hit by 2*500#
Kongo: main rangefinder knocked out by Wildcat strafing

That wasn't by overall WWII standards a bad performance for those CVE a/c. Factors in the relatively low torpedo hit rate were series of small strikes which were easier to dodge. Heavy losses to aerial torpedo attacks usually occurred when relatively large formations attacked in coordination off from both sides at once, making the ships expose their broadside to one set of torpedoes if trying to comb the others. Also the CVE TBM crews were not well practiced in torpedo attack; their main roles were ASW patrol, close support of landings, attacking small ships with bombs, etc.

Joe

 

[davebender]

This is the incident I was thinking of. Makes me wonder how many other Hs-293 hits may have been officially credited to another type weapon.
Sinkings of USS Corry (DD-463) and USS Meredith (DD-726)

FINAL OFFICIAL REPORTS CHANGE THE CAUSE OF THE SINKINGS:

USS Meredith reported multiple times being hit by a bomb. (8 June 1944).
But afterward, the "official" cause of the Meredith's sinking was a mine.

USS Corry reported multiple times being sunk by heavy enemy artillery fire. (6 June 1944)
But afterward, the "official" cause of the Corry's sinking was a mine.

 

[renrich]

I think the Halifax did some good work on anti sub patrol also but the Lib was the star because of range and overall performance.

 

[pbehn]

I think the Ju 87 sank a lot of shipping possibly most was moored in port and maybe not many fighting ships but I believe it was a large tonnage.

 

[Edgar Brooks]

Nearly 10 years, 12 pages, and, as usual, nobody has mentioned the Beaufort; one of them put a torpedo into Gneisenau, which put paid to Hitler's idea of her and Scharnhorst accompanying Bismarck. The damage done by Beauforts, against Rommel in the Mediterranean, is always forgotten, and I recommend reading "The Ship-Busters" by Ralph Barker.

 

[Shortround6]

It is because many people only count "kills" and not cripples/damaged.

And like the Japanese, some seem to think that only warships count. And large ones at that. Cruiser or battleship sinkings make head lines. 6th or 7th merchant ship in week doesn't make page one.

He 111s and Ju 88s did a fair number on some arctic convoys.

 

[stona]

He 111s and Ju 88s did a fair number on some arctic convoys.

I just read this thread and was surprised that the Ju 88 was ignored...until your post.

I love the old Swordfish, but how much shipping did it really sink? I can't imagine it's really a contender.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Shortround6]

It depends on how or what you measure.

Battleship at 30-45,000tons or frighters at 500 tons to 10,000 tons.

Sunk in deep water or harbors and salvaged/repaired?

British torpedo planes had some good success in crippling/knocking out of action a number of large ships but let's face it. The axis and allies had some rather different target sets for a good part of the war. The British had to hunt harder for targets than the Germans and Italians did.

 

[redcoat]

I'm not sure how effective they were in this role, but didn't the RAF use a small number of B-17's for antishipping patrols?

It was used in the anti-submarine warfare role, but not in the maritime strike role.

 

[redcoat]

I love the old Swordfish, but how much shipping did it really sink? I can't imagine it's really a contender.

Cheers

Steve

Operating out of Malta in the night torpedo bomber role it sank an impressive amount of Axis shipping, at it's height it was credited with sinking 50,000 tons a month operating from the island.

In total the Swordfish is credited with sinking over 300,000 tons of Axis shipping

 

[stona]

I note that the Swordfish also sank, or assisted in the sinking of, 22.5 U Boats. Better than I thought.

Cheers

Steve

 

[merlin]

Nearly 10 years, 12 pages, and, as usual, nobody has mentioned the Beaufort; one of them put a torpedo into Gneisenau, which put paid to Hitler's idea of her and Scharnhorst accompanying Bismarck. The damage done by Beauforts, against Rommel in the Mediterranean, is always forgotten, and I recommend reading "The Ship-Busters" by Ralph Barker.

Yes, very good book - I got mine at an antiques centre! It was staggering what they had to endure - all too often cut short!

 

[tomo pauk]

If we can't get Highball to work, then maybe the Mosquito with a torpedo should be a contender. A picture of the Mossie of the air-force of the former brotherly republics with Letor-2 (light electric torpedo).
The Americans and Germans should stick with bombs IMO.