Defeat of the Luftwaffe
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- #364
I understand. Also, now there are many people in the US victims of view the Eastern Front was "everything" in WWII, and Marxist teachers are eager to put this in the minds of students. Here in Brazil, due to the opposition of the Communists to our dictator from the wartime, and the military dictatorship that followed in the 1960s after some time of democracy, our participation in the war is also much unknow by the general public.
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There is no historical precendent for this.
No it didn't and no it also never did lust for land in resource in the east at least as far as Russia/Soviet union is concerned. Part of the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth came to be absorbed into Fredericks Prussian empire because the Polish-Nobillity and King had allowed a Russian army through their country, feeding it on the way, to attack Prussia. No king could tollerate such a government.
After WW1, Predominantly at the insistance of France large areas of land and large parts of the German population were driven driven into newely created nations way beyind the traditional area of those nations. The Suddetenn Germans didn't want to be part of Czechoslovakia and neither did the Slovaks. They were even denied Swiss style democractic cantonic govermment. During 1920 council elections about 80 unarmed ethnic german demonstrators were killed by Czech police. No one forgets their "bloody sunday". They were sacked from the public service, they had their land appropriated by the new Governments and redistributed to Czechs with new Czch schools and villages built in those areas. They were threatened by ethnic cleansing, the same happened in Poland. The Germans in these areas filed complaints by the tens of thousands with the League of nations who did nothing. These nations were made much larger than was decent and correct at the insistance of a should have been French circus clown called Clementau who created and impossible situation for Europe.
Incidently France was a country which had been asked by the Kaiser government if they would stay neutral in the event of a war between Germany and Russia and actually replied no. Part of the reason was secret British Naval guarantees of 1905 which promised Royal Navy support in the even the German Navy and French Navy came into conflict. Thus supported the French felt secure in not being neutral and takeing opporunity to take revenge for their loss in the Franco Prussian war as soon as Germany turned its back to face the Tzar.
For the majority of Germans WW2 was about protecting other Germans who had the misfortune of ending up with in these new nations without plebescite.
Mein Kampf wouldn't have been effective if it had of been written in the haughty turgid tones used by loathing thematic biographers like Kershaw. such small minded men can't even avoid makeing snide remarks over Eva Brauns hairstyle. Kershaw even takes Hitlers pain at the loss of his pet terrier as evidence that he couldn't relate to humans. That would be news to most pet owners wouldn't it? He's the Perez Hilton of WW2 Hitler Histories.
Hitler was highly intelligent, he was of artistic temprement and thus lacked a sense of proportion and prefered grande and total solutions. He fed himself as a teenager for several years when his mother died by selling paintings, he essentially architecturally redesigned the city of Linz as a boy.
When Hitler wrote grimmly and fantastically about the possibillity of building an empire big enough and able to sustain and resource itself by takeing eastern European countries into a greater empire most people simply ignored it and considered it as a result of the anger he felt at 2 million of his collegiate German solidiers dying in WW1.. He says as much in mein kampf and refers to the wasted lives of the 2 million. It was also a time when demobed solidier "Freikorps" defended Germany against further seizures of land by Polish armed forces in 1919 and 1920. Mein Kampf was written in the immediate aftermath of that dreadfull war when feelings were high so this was put aside. A war he volunteered in, survived 4 years in, obtained both a iron cross second and then first class, a wound badge in black in 1915 (6 months in hospital) managed to single handely capture an entire French patrol and bring them in alone and took several other prisoners on his own. This was a passionate and dedicated man. He commited no atrocities, killed no POW, harmed no animals (rather loved them) at this time. However this war hardened him.
Hitler liked total and solutions, he was not an politician beholden to lobbies so he had great freedom of action. He decided to come up with a total permanent solution to Germany being the meat in the Sandwitch between Poland, France (both Hostile, france invaded german states no less than 25 times). Since the Danzig issue wasn't solved by diplomacy and negotiation (likely due to British gurantees under pressure from Roosevelt) there clearly wasn't going to be much opportunity for using military force, then just withdrawing, hoping that the slightly diminished Poland would now respect the Polish corridor to Danzig. Hitler saw Poland and the Soviet union as a source of eternal threat, so he came up with a solution.
No one knew what Hitler was planning. When the Belgium Fortress Emmanthaal had to be taken to secure the eastern military routes into Belgium he studied the matter himself and decided that there was only once succesfull fortress capture in WW1 and that had been due to ballistic penetration. As no possible guns existed Hitler personally studied the literature and worked out that shaped charges might do the job. He then enquired whether they could be scalled up. When the paratrooper Kurt Student was called to Hitlers Office by Goering, Goering had to admit he knew nothing of why he was calling Student. Hitler came up with his own ideas all by himself. They were creative, right brained, radical as came from his artistic mentallity and teenage style of working (mulling over the idea before a flurry of activity). That's the way Hitler planned the bigger actions of WW2.
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- #366
michaelmaltby
Colonel
"... There is no historical precedent for this."
There may not be a "historical" precedent, but then there was no Germany before 1871, Seigfried.
Germans - historically - sought economic advantage in eastern Europe - this was well understood and Russian Tsars from Peter onwards encouraged the migration East of German peoples. The Tsars used the more advanced German people to improve the economic conditions of their feudal, backward, lands. Workers such as smiths, millers and other skilled workers and industrious farmers (like Mennonites) were offered land and privileges to live in Russia.
So it against THIS BACKGROUND that you should consider the Nazis' interest in the East -- it may not have precedence as German state policy but had hundreds of years of practical precedence for German people -- whom Hitler and the Nazis appealed to.
MM
There may not be a "historical" precedent, but then there was no Germany before 1871, Seigfried.
Germans - historically - sought economic advantage in eastern Europe - this was well understood and Russian Tsars from Peter onwards encouraged the migration East of German peoples. The Tsars used the more advanced German people to improve the economic conditions of their feudal, backward, lands. Workers such as smiths, millers and other skilled workers and industrious farmers (like Mennonites) were offered land and privileges to live in Russia.
So it against THIS BACKGROUND that you should consider the Nazis' interest in the East -- it may not have precedence as German state policy but had hundreds of years of practical precedence for German people -- whom Hitler and the Nazis appealed to.
MM
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parsifal
Colonel
a new twist....the peace loving defence minded germans were the victims of allied imperialism and soviet aggression i see.
nazism was by nature aggressive in the extreme, and there is plenty of evidence to support that. They desired and lusted for the riches of the east, which makes the non-aggression pact all the more an amzing and unusual outcome. However, before this is seized on a evidence of german good intentions, neither signatory to the pact believed it was a lasting treaty. it was a marriage of convenience. It just that stalin underestimated the german desire for self harm and untrustworthiness over his own. Both were as bad as each other, neither could be trusted, both had evil aggressive intent. With regard to germany that was proven in the post war war crimes trials, but we are not going there, weve been told not to.
nazism was by nature aggressive in the extreme, and there is plenty of evidence to support that. They desired and lusted for the riches of the east, which makes the non-aggression pact all the more an amzing and unusual outcome. However, before this is seized on a evidence of german good intentions, neither signatory to the pact believed it was a lasting treaty. it was a marriage of convenience. It just that stalin underestimated the german desire for self harm and untrustworthiness over his own. Both were as bad as each other, neither could be trusted, both had evil aggressive intent. With regard to germany that was proven in the post war war crimes trials, but we are not going there, weve been told not to.
I take "Germany" as a fiction. It would mean - a uniform entity. It is not - many different nations make it up sharing a similar culture, and speaking the (more or less) same language.
It was called the Reich for reason. Empires by definition are multi-background.
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- #371
To Hitler the German people was just a means to a end. That was fully revealed in his last actions late in the war, he had no concerns of what would happen to the German people after his death. In his opinion, he hadn't failed Germany. Germany had failed him.
Instead of taking responsibility for his own actions, he took the cowards way out, and let other people take the punishment.
So finally Siegfried, you fully reveal yourself, not only the reincarnation of the 3rd reich's ministry of propaganda, but also a open admirer of Adolf Hitler.
Readie
Chief Master Sergeant
I have been following this thread but, not posted.
You Michael have summed it all up very well...and, I must say, better than I could.
Thank you
John
Readie
Chief Master Sergeant
I assume that you actually believe what you write...or is this some kind of joke?
You should be ashamed at posting such overt admiration for Hitler.
John
parsifal
Colonel
Yup, and justy like the nazis, mix some truth with a lot of lies to make an even more potent brew that at least some people will believe.
Dont get me wrong. Siegried actually believes this stuff. I dont know how that might happen, because the guy is smart and knowledgable. unfortunately, with those very admirable traits is another.....malevolent misguidance, and a desire to sow his version of the truth whatever the cost.
For those of us who had family that fought to defeat this malevolent shadow, its very sad to watch it rising again. we wonty have to fight this, but as a baby boomer, our grandkids will, i predict
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
do you go out of the house Siegfied , because I can't really see you having any friends with views like that
"There is no historical precendent for this.
No it didn't and no it also never did lust for land in resource in the east"
I referred to Hitler's writings and you wrote
"When Hitler wrote grimmly and fantastically about the possibillity of building an empire big enough and able to sustain and resource itself by takeing eastern European countries into a greater empire most people simply ignored it"...
Your two quotes are mutually exclusive. Hitler's writings indicate that he did have the intention of attaining space (liebensraum) and resources in the East,you confirm this yourself. Most people may indeed have ignored it,at their peril.
The rest of your post is faintly ludicrous I shall give one of your lines as an example.
"Hitler liked total and solutions, he was not an politician beholden to lobbies so he had great freedom of action."
He was a dictator in a totalitarian state for heaven's sake! You do understand the nature of dictatorship. Everything,the atrocities,the extermination camps, the politico-racial nature of the war in the East stemmed from him. "He had great freedom of action"....you can't be serious.
I do NOT hold the popular view that Hitler was some kind of carpet biting mad man,he was far more intelligent and dangerous than that,but your apologia is slightly disturbing. I was half expecting you to suggest that he had no knowledge of "die endlösung der Judenfrage".
Steve
No it didn't and no it also never did lust for land in resource in the east"
I referred to Hitler's writings and you wrote
"When Hitler wrote grimmly and fantastically about the possibillity of building an empire big enough and able to sustain and resource itself by takeing eastern European countries into a greater empire most people simply ignored it"...
Your two quotes are mutually exclusive. Hitler's writings indicate that he did have the intention of attaining space (liebensraum) and resources in the East,you confirm this yourself. Most people may indeed have ignored it,at their peril.
The rest of your post is faintly ludicrous I shall give one of your lines as an example.
"Hitler liked total and solutions, he was not an politician beholden to lobbies so he had great freedom of action."
He was a dictator in a totalitarian state for heaven's sake! You do understand the nature of dictatorship. Everything,the atrocities,the extermination camps, the politico-racial nature of the war in the East stemmed from him. "He had great freedom of action"....you can't be serious.
I do NOT hold the popular view that Hitler was some kind of carpet biting mad man,he was far more intelligent and dangerous than that,but your apologia is slightly disturbing. I was half expecting you to suggest that he had no knowledge of "die endlösung der Judenfrage".
Steve
Readie
Chief Master Sergeant
It is unacceptably offensive to laud Hitler as Siegfried does.
His outrageous views belittle the forum.
John
His outrageous views belittle the forum.
John
Well it is obvious that this will not stay on topic, thanks...
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