Doras Galoras - Unofficial GB
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silence
Senior Airman
I don't know if you'd call this a D-13 or maybe a -14 or -15. Its an Eduard D-13, but with the Quickboost Ta152C cowling, DB exhaust stacks, and flaps, and the supercharger intake is moved from the right side to the left (that was a pain). Oh, and a custom paint job as well with a white underside. It also has antenna for all-weather flying and the storage hatch directly behind the pilot is opened.
It'd look better if I had a better camera phone, but it is in no way anywhere near Wayne Little quality, but I had fun with it. Still needs a bit of touch up.
It'd look better if I had a better camera phone, but it is in no way anywhere near Wayne Little quality, but I had fun with it. Still needs a bit of touch up.
Well, in that config, it could be either the Paper D-14 or the Prototype D-15 (ignoring the Jumo Cowls and Supercharger in take - the DB powered a/c have a 'deeper' engine cowl for the slightly bigger DB603 and the exhaust stacks in 1/48 are about 1mm lower). The D-15('s?) that reportedly flew were configured with only the inboard MG151/20's and the 'D-9' style fin, though development documents cite a variety of possible 'production' configurations, ranging from just adding the 'Ta 152' style fin and a different type of supercharger intake (which was linked to the version of DB603 that was to be installed), to varying load outs.
From MEMORY, these were i) 2x MG151/20's in the wing roots, ii) 1x MG151/20 or MK108 through the engine and 2x MG151/20's in the wing roots (the D-13 configuration), iii) 2x MG151/20's in the wing roots plus 2x MK108 outboard wings (the D-11 configuration), iv) 1x MG151/20 or MK108 through the engine and 2x MG151/20's in the wing roots plus 2x MK108 outboard wings... The last config would have been one HELL of a heavy hitting load out.
I strongly beleive had the war progressed another 6 months, we would have seen a D-14/-15 configuration fly. Ta 152C/E/H production was ramping up (though was being crippled by allied bombing and lack of fuel) and we see an increasing number of parts showing up on either machines. Fw 190D's with Ta 152 cockpits and tails and engines - Ta 152's with Fw 190 canopies and ancillery systems - and WHY? To simplify production! Subcontractors could switch over to the 'new' parts, yet keep supplying both Fw 190D and Ta 152C/E/H lines; which thus would allow the production lines to switch to the Ta 152C/E/H a lot easier and where this was not possible, keep on producing the D-13 or D-15 (depending on engine availability)... Much in the way that we see with the Bf 109G-6/G-14 and K-4, with the K-4 very much in production in some area's, while K-4 technologies were adapted to the G's in other locations (such as Diana) to form the G-6/AS, G-14/AS and ultimately the G-10 (which was a pretty hot ship! All the GO of the K-4, without the extra weight).
But, this is slightly off topic
Dan
From MEMORY, these were i) 2x MG151/20's in the wing roots, ii) 1x MG151/20 or MK108 through the engine and 2x MG151/20's in the wing roots (the D-13 configuration), iii) 2x MG151/20's in the wing roots plus 2x MK108 outboard wings (the D-11 configuration), iv) 1x MG151/20 or MK108 through the engine and 2x MG151/20's in the wing roots plus 2x MK108 outboard wings... The last config would have been one HELL of a heavy hitting load out.
I strongly beleive had the war progressed another 6 months, we would have seen a D-14/-15 configuration fly. Ta 152C/E/H production was ramping up (though was being crippled by allied bombing and lack of fuel) and we see an increasing number of parts showing up on either machines. Fw 190D's with Ta 152 cockpits and tails and engines - Ta 152's with Fw 190 canopies and ancillery systems - and WHY? To simplify production! Subcontractors could switch over to the 'new' parts, yet keep supplying both Fw 190D and Ta 152C/E/H lines; which thus would allow the production lines to switch to the Ta 152C/E/H a lot easier and where this was not possible, keep on producing the D-13 or D-15 (depending on engine availability)... Much in the way that we see with the Bf 109G-6/G-14 and K-4, with the K-4 very much in production in some area's, while K-4 technologies were adapted to the G's in other locations (such as Diana) to form the G-6/AS, G-14/AS and ultimately the G-10 (which was a pretty hot ship! All the GO of the K-4, without the extra weight).
But, this is slightly off topic
Dan
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From what I have seen, not that much is!
Thanks Very Much gentlemen.....much appreciated...that White Dora should have a JG 5 emblem on it and it would fit nicely in a far North scenario....don't mind the tiger stripe black and white pattern on the wings..
silence
Senior Airman
I was thinking of doing something along these lines for the second half of the kit. Have to come up with another weird paint scheme first... (I also get real frustrated with the poor Eduard fits, so I try to ration myself! So many good things about the kits, yet this one real - in my eyes - weakness.)
Do you by chance know where I can find some good info on the DB Doras beyond the Harmann book?
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- #1,187
Crimea_River
Marshal
I found the Eduard Dora kit to be excellent. It does, however, require a lot of care during assembly as there are a lot of detail parts that need to align perfectly, especially when mating the fuselage halves. Definitely made for the advanced modeler but far from poor in my opinion.
silence
Senior Airman
You're probably right. I just got frustrated with the 190A-8 Royal kit: the first engine I built didn't fit, but for some weird reason the second one did. I still haven't figured that one out. As for the Dora kit, it seems like a simple layer of paint will throw off the fit in the cockpit and engine areas. I do really like how they can be built with so much of the innards exposed, especially the gun bays.
Firstly, the Eduard kit - its a MAGNIFICENTLY Engineered Kit - and in my experience, very few fit issues exist if you take you time and take note that a lot of stuff DOES NOT and IS NOT meant to be at 90deg - If you screw it up tho, it turns into a handful really fast, as so much stuff rely's on previous steps. My best advice, for CRITICAL components (Wing Spar, Engine Firewall/Gun Deck/Instrument Panel Rear/Engine Block), dry fit with Blu-Tack and make sure every thing clears - then when you're happy, tack things lightly with a thicker, slower cureing glue (I use Tamiya Orange), so you can get the parts in, test fit the other parts (like close up the fuselage with rubber-bands, then gently push bits into the right place. The Wing spar can be particularly tricky - my first one, I test fitted, was happy, so I CLAMPED in place and just ran Weldene (my 'thin' glue) down the join. Somewhere between clamping and glue drying, the whole spar slid about 1mm to the right... NIGHTMARE from there - partially because I did realise til well after things were all joined up!!
But the key is (as Wayne L recently told me with regards to the ZM Ta 152H-1 as well) to simply take your time and test fit - to which I will add, not a whole lot on the Eduard Fw 190/Ta 152 is actually set at 90deg - there are a LOT of 89deg and 87deg(?)-ish joins, which look like they SHOULD be at 90deg; but if you do that, you're in trouble... Fuselage won't join properly, Wing Spar will foul things, etc. And this is more prevailent on the D-9, than the D-11 and D-13...
In away its like the DML/Dragon Ta 152H and Fw 190D - ppl always complain about the fit and engineering and warping and etc; but look at Waynes 'Black 10'! Once you know how the kit works and what the KEY/CRITICAL area's are, they're actually quite good, well fitting kits (in the case of the DML/Dragon jobs, the 'banana fuselage sides' tend to create exaggerated wing joint issues if you do not either i) add spacers beneath the cockpit to pust the sides out to meet the wing joins, or ii) glue the wing tops directly to the fuselage sides, then flex them, to fit the win bottom).
For me, the toughest part of the Eduard kits is closing up with the Wing Guns - lots of filing (removing all the interior door detail, opening up with the wing and champfering the edges to assist fit). But honestly, they're beautiful kits and worth the extra little bit of Concentration and Planning.
Secondly, the DB Dora's - including pics of my subject (601286 - in a wrecked state
) can be found in the latter section of the Japo Focke-Wulf Fw 190D - Camouflage and Markings Part II book. In fact it was our own Mr. Wayne Little who put me onto those too - they're not cheap (I think I paid $109 for Pt2 and $88 for Pt1, via Craig from Aeroworks - and have since bought most of the Luftwaffe over Czech Territory Series, both EE/Crandall Fw 190D volumes (which while I HATE the layout, act as a nice counter-balance to the Japo books), the EE Ta 152 and the EE Grün Herz Dora Neun and etc, via Craig) but honestly, if you have a passion for the Dora and the Tank they're sort of compulsory (except for the Lw over Czech series, which is more Bf 190G-10/U3, Me 262A/B and Ar 234 focused, with some interest dashes of He 219 here and there). I'd recommend the Japo books first, then the EE/Crandall - probably cost you around $400, but to put that into context, your average Eduard Fw 190D ProfiPACK is in the area of $40-$50 (although bargains can be had), then add your consumables (blades, paper, glues, paints, strip styrene, filler), a little aftermarket like metal gun barrells and youve spent $90-ish bucks. Throw in some Eaglecals and suddenly you're at $100-$110...So the four books equate to roughtly 4 kits - and 4 kits is no real dent, if you have stashes like ppl like me (who has just bought another two Eduard 190D's, bringing the total to like 30 of them, to add to the 18 Dragon/DML Ta 152's, 12 Hasegawa Bf 109G's and K's... and lets not even get into i) the He 219 stuff, ii) the 1/32 stuff, iii) the other guilty pleasures, being Tomcat's (15) and Super Hornets (6) and CA-27 Sabres (6), iv) the various Nachtjagd stuff, v) Ta 183's, etc) or Wayne - more stuff than I'll probably ever build!
Wayne - you got Craig at Aeroworks details on hand? its something like Craig (at) Aeroworks.com.au and he's in SA. Postage is always very prompt on in-stock items and I've have NEVER had any issue with Packaging (quality there of).
Moral of the Story - Stick with the Eduard Fw 190's, but try changing your approach a little - it may add 15-30mins over all to the build, but so what? Get a hold of Japo Fw 190D Pt1 and Pt2 and EE Dora Vol1 and Vol2... Then you're sweet! EE Fw Ta 152 is recommended if you want to go that direction, and the EE Grün Herz Dora Neun (Green Hearts - Dora 9) provides some good extra stuff... Avoid the Francks Fw 190D and Ta 152 title unless you're desperate - full of 'iffy'! And Enjoy Spending the Monies - as soon as I got the books, I was BLOWN AWAY buy how good they were (esp Japo - ie: the Bible!); Wayne here talked them up to me, but even then, what I got surpassed pretty much every realistic expectation I had!
Dan
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silence
Senior Airman
Funny, I'm working on a ZM 152 right now. Its about half done and I can't think of ANY issues save I wish the were more panels to expose the innards. First time using Tamiya rattlecan paint and I'm impressed.
I've noticed far too often what you said about Eduard parts moving in weird directions. As far as off-angle fits, maybe my eyes aren't good enough for the scale. And I too have built many Doras and Tas in my time. I admit that the Eduard D-11 I built a while back just seemed to fall together very nicely. (I'm on my second D-11/-13 dual pack.)
My favorite may be my 1/24 Trumpeter Dora with grey/black/white camo. Even with the inaccuracies in the mold it went together very nicely and its impressive just by its sheer size...
Thanks for the info on the literature. Now I gotta find the cash....
I've noticed far too often what you said about Eduard parts moving in weird directions. As far as off-angle fits, maybe my eyes aren't good enough for the scale. And I too have built many Doras and Tas in my time. I admit that the Eduard D-11 I built a while back just seemed to fall together very nicely. (I'm on my second D-11/-13 dual pack.)
My favorite may be my 1/24 Trumpeter Dora with grey/black/white camo. Even with the inaccuracies in the mold it went together very nicely and its impressive just by its sheer size...
Thanks for the info on the literature. Now I gotta find the cash....
Oh wait, you're in the US - The Crandall in particular will be cheaper and the Japo too, most likely... You can probably find a closer stockist than Craig in South Australia! Hahahaha
The Crandall volumes can be had for reasonable prices on eBay; the Japo maybe harder to find...
Dan
The Crandall volumes can be had for reasonable prices on eBay; the Japo maybe harder to find...
Dan
I haven't started my ZM Tank - I'm waiting til I have the time the PROPERLY devote myself to that beast! With regards to my comments on 'just take your time', that was Wayne's construction advice when I proudly told him I owned one (his build of 150168 - with those AWESOME Werk Nummern decals - looks killer!).
As for parts moving on the Eduard kits - thats only (noticably) happened to me once and I put that down to operator error (ie, the tension not perfectly distributed, etc, so when the solvent welds the plastic, things move). AND the Eduard plastic is thinner (or lighter?) than say the DML/Dragon plastic, but again, this has not caused me any issues. In fact, its probably a help over a hindrence. But again, my experinence with the Eduard Kits is that dry fitting IS REQUIRED and due to the complexity of the kit, you need to tackle it with different glues for different things. As before, a thicker glue like Tamiya Orange, for tacking parts so the move a bit when you check things close up; a thinner glue like plastruct Weldene, for running down seams (both on the tacked parts and otherwise); as for the NON self-adhesive metal, I now use a Spray Adhesive (Kwik Grip Spray), so I dont get 'ooze' on flat parts and on boxed parts, use a Gel Super Glue and some 320grit-sanded Evergreen angle off-cuts... But the Standard ProfiPack doesnt have any thing PE that needs to be 'boxed', does it?
You observations re: the D-11 are correct though; consensus seems to be that its the most 'tolerant' of the D series. My guess is that its to do with the different wing mold and how that Spar Interacts with things. Remember also though that the Engine Cowl is a totally different shape to the D-9 and in the case of the D-11 and D-13, there is a lot LESS in there - ie: less parts, less chances to screw up, hahaha My only problew with the D-11/D-13 is the Radiator Face - not sure how Eduard Missed that (tempted to try and scab a Quickboost Ta 152C radiator cowl onto it as the flaps are the same arrangement and HB (and thus QB) screwed the cowl up, by missing the small gun clearance recesses). The D-11 also has the D-13 Radiator Flap-Open Ring, where as it should use the D-9 Ring (for some reason I just like posing my Dora's with the radiator flaps open, despite the extra work it creates!
Back to your interest in the DB powered Dora's (as you may have noticed, one of mine also and topic of my GLACIALLY SLOW BUILD)... Now, the D-15 program was delivered a number of Factory Fresh D-9's (from GFW Fieseler Kassel), that were delivered to Roland Arb./DB for conversion. According to Japo Fw190D vol.II, known WNr's, Fw190D-9's for conversion to Fw190D-15's, presumably for prototype/test duties, were (transfer date in parenthesis)
■601071 (11/3/45)
■601098, 601093, 601096, 601075, 601089, 601102 (12/3/45)
■601063, 601079, 601289, 601104, 601286* (13/3/45)
■601099 (14/3/45)
■601068 (16/3/45)
■601080 (17/3/45)
601286 is known to have been completed and suspected of having flown an early configuration (ie, only inner wing guns) - found blown up at Nellingen. What is also of interest, is it is beleived that Roland Arb. (who were doing the conversions) DID NOT have a supply of RLM spec'd paints, thus there is very high chance that these a/c were finished (in part - such as deck lid, etc) with RAL colours.
Its also theorised that a great deal of the engine cowling was ripped directly from the Ta 152C (as it used the same Engine Bearers and had the same big fairing on the Supercharger side) - so basically, you have a DB painted power-egg, which was probably RLM76 and RLM75 (according to the spec) or RLM81/83 (Jumo would finish their power eggs in RLM76 and either RLM70, RLM81/83- its possible RLM71 was used also. Later eggs for D-11 and D-13 were suspected of being delievered in camo and RLM75 and etc), with a modified upper fairing and radiator ring, custom deck lid (to fair the Ta 152 Egg contours into the Fw 190 Fuselage) and extra reinforcements (according to the drawings and slightly evidenced by the burnt out photo's). When that jumble was put together, it is likely a RAL Dark Green was used to paint the manufactured areas and 'blend' them into the existing factory paints.
Moral of the story - fuselage from the firewall back and wings and tail, GFW (Dark Balkenkreuz) Scheme; Radiator Ring, Power Egg, DB Ta 152C Power Egg Scheme; Deck Lid, Engine Cowl and Radiator Ring Top, extra Mods, Whatever RAL Green you fancy! In the case of '286, it also seemed to have a RLM70 Windscreen.
Happy Happy!
Addendum - DUH, the Ta 152C/DB 603LA Radiator Ring has a different oil cooler set up to the Fw 190D-11 D-13/Jumo 213E set up - so that plan WILL NOT WORK...
- looks killer!). As for parts moving on the Eduard kits - thats only (noticably) happened to me once and I put that down to operator error (ie, the tension not perfectly distributed, etc, so when the solvent welds the plastic, things move). AND the Eduard plastic is thinner (or lighter?) than say the DML/Dragon plastic, but again, this has not caused me any issues. In fact, its probably a help over a hindrence. But again, my experinence with the Eduard Kits is that dry fitting IS REQUIRED and due to the complexity of the kit, you need to tackle it with different glues for different things. As before, a thicker glue like Tamiya Orange, for tacking parts so the move a bit when you check things close up; a thinner glue like plastruct Weldene, for running down seams (both on the tacked parts and otherwise); as for the NON self-adhesive metal, I now use a Spray Adhesive (Kwik Grip Spray), so I dont get 'ooze' on flat parts and on boxed parts, use a Gel Super Glue and some 320grit-sanded Evergreen angle off-cuts... But the Standard ProfiPack doesnt have any thing PE that needs to be 'boxed', does it?
You observations re: the D-11 are correct though; consensus seems to be that its the most 'tolerant' of the D series. My guess is that its to do with the different wing mold and how that Spar Interacts with things. Remember also though that the Engine Cowl is a totally different shape to the D-9 and in the case of the D-11 and D-13, there is a lot LESS in there - ie: less parts, less chances to screw up, hahaha
My only problew with the D-11/D-13 is the Radiator Face - not sure how Eduard Missed that (tempted to try and scab a Quickboost Ta 152C radiator cowl onto it as the flaps are the same arrangement and HB (and thus QB) screwed the cowl up, by missing the small gun clearance recesses). The D-11 also has the D-13 Radiator Flap-Open Ring, where as it should use the D-9 Ring (for some reason I just like posing my Dora's with the radiator flaps open, despite the extra work it creates!Back to your interest in the DB powered Dora's (as you may have noticed, one of mine also and topic of my GLACIALLY SLOW BUILD)... Now, the D-15 program was delivered a number of Factory Fresh D-9's (from GFW Fieseler Kassel), that were delivered to Roland Arb./DB for conversion. According to Japo Fw190D vol.II, known WNr's, Fw190D-9's for conversion to Fw190D-15's, presumably for prototype/test duties, were (transfer date in parenthesis)
■601071 (11/3/45)
■601098, 601093, 601096, 601075, 601089, 601102 (12/3/45)
■601063, 601079, 601289, 601104, 601286* (13/3/45)
■601099 (14/3/45)
■601068 (16/3/45)
■601080 (17/3/45)
601286 is known to have been completed and suspected of having flown an early configuration (ie, only inner wing guns) - found blown up at Nellingen. What is also of interest, is it is beleived that Roland Arb. (who were doing the conversions) DID NOT have a supply of RLM spec'd paints, thus there is very high chance that these a/c were finished (in part - such as deck lid, etc) with RAL colours.
Its also theorised that a great deal of the engine cowling was ripped directly from the Ta 152C (as it used the same Engine Bearers and had the same big fairing on the Supercharger side) - so basically, you have a DB painted power-egg, which was probably RLM76 and RLM75 (according to the spec) or RLM81/83 (Jumo would finish their power eggs in RLM76 and either RLM70, RLM81/83- its possible RLM71 was used also. Later eggs for D-11 and D-13 were suspected of being delievered in camo and RLM75 and etc), with a modified upper fairing and radiator ring, custom deck lid (to fair the Ta 152 Egg contours into the Fw 190 Fuselage) and extra reinforcements (according to the drawings and slightly evidenced by the burnt out photo's). When that jumble was put together, it is likely a RAL Dark Green was used to paint the manufactured areas and 'blend' them into the existing factory paints.
Moral of the story - fuselage from the firewall back and wings and tail, GFW (Dark Balkenkreuz) Scheme; Radiator Ring, Power Egg, DB Ta 152C Power Egg Scheme; Deck Lid, Engine Cowl and Radiator Ring Top, extra Mods, Whatever RAL Green you fancy! In the case of '286, it also seemed to have a RLM70 Windscreen.
Happy Happy!
Addendum - DUH, the Ta 152C/DB 603LA Radiator Ring has a different oil cooler set up to the Fw 190D-11 D-13/Jumo 213E set up - so that plan WILL NOT WORK...
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And me .....owning some 20 plus Eduard kits most being 190's in one form or another have yet to build one....go figure....
I would like to do an R4M loaded D-11 to kick off my Eduard stash, but have yet to get my hands on the 'Scarce as Rocking horse sh!t ' 1/48 R4M set from EE....so if someone knows where I may get my hands on one....
I would like to do an R4M loaded D-11 to kick off my Eduard stash, but have yet to get my hands on the 'Scarce as Rocking horse sh!t ' 1/48 R4M set from EE....so if someone knows where I may get my hands on one....
Hmmm (looks, measures, thinks) - that could be a fun mastering project! Must find some measurements for those (EE Dora Vol2 IIRC???) - having access to lathes and the rack being a pretty simple shape, may not be a big issue to make...
Dan
Addendum - Yep, just looked up the sizes; the rack is chinch! The R4M's would be best cast tho; the front half of a master could be turned in Brass, with the rear in plastic (to make creating the folding fins easier). Although, if turned properly, recesses could be etched for the fins - wouldn't be too scale, but an R4M in 1/48 is only 1.1mm across!
Dan
Addendum - Yep, just looked up the sizes; the rack is chinch! The R4M's would be best cast tho; the front half of a master could be turned in Brass, with the rear in plastic (to make creating the folding fins easier). Although, if turned properly, recesses could be etched for the fins - wouldn't be too scale, but an R4M in 1/48 is only 1.1mm across!
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silence
Senior Airman
"chinch"? - meaning not so good??
silence
Senior Airman
I haven't started my ZM Tank - I'm waiting til I have the time the PROPERLY devote myself to that beast! With regards to my comments on 'just take your time', that was Wayne's construction advice when I proudly told him I owned one (his build of 150168 - with those AWESOME Werk Nummern decals
I'd love to see those pics, but the "Wayne Little's Projects" threat has a daunting 160 pages, and I daunt kinda easily.
Sorry... It's a 'chinch' is one of those Australianism's that the rest of the world dont seem to get (like a 'Fortnight' and countless others that don't readily spring to mind at 4:00am) - basically I'm saying its not that hard. All the rack widths and depths and etc, measure up quite nicely to pre-cut (plastic and brass) strip and sheet and etc. The tougher part will be making the rockets.
Knocking up two racks is not a big scratch-build (a little fiddly, but thats why I mention brass above) - but the rockets! Making 26 of those is something you want to look at doing with a Brass Master so you can mold-make and pour them in resin, so they all end up looking the same.
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Just go to here....http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/13-your-favorite-aircraft-all-time/finished-1-32-ta152h-1-stab-jg301-favourite-aircraft-all-time-gb-32917.html
and here less pages to view....http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/13-your-favorite-aircraft-all-time/done-focke-wulf-ta152h-1-stab-jg301-your-favorite-aircraft-all-time-gb-31777.html
silence
Senior Airman
That looks just awesome, sir. I bow to your talent.
Thanks for your kind words....
