The FMs couldn't "go upstairs," that issue was still there. They continued to see combat off the jeeps and in addition to that were in large part put to base-defensive and various utility uses.
Hellcat vs Spitfire - which would you take?
- Thread starter wuzak
- Start date
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parsifal
Colonel
@ wuzak
Bur isnt the LR spitfire you are thinking about a Mustang under another name. I did prefac my suggestion about building Mustangs as (probably)....if the same result can be done cheaper by "stretching the Spitfire, at a cheaper price....all the better. But it didnt happen......you raise a very good point...why didnt the Brits feel the need for extra range. I dont get that at all...
Bur isnt the LR spitfire you are thinking about a Mustang under another name. I did prefac my suggestion about building Mustangs as (probably)....if the same result can be done cheaper by "stretching the Spitfire, at a cheaper price....all the better. But it didnt happen......you raise a very good point...why didnt the Brits feel the need for extra range. I dont get that at all...
drgondog
Major
The Brits DID wish to build Mustangs in GB. The primary stated issue was the detraction of critical resources from US production to duplicate and start production in UK... The high level talks progressed into early 1944. I suspect there were politics at play on both sides of the pond.
- Thread starter
- #224
wuzak
Captain
There was some discussion earlier about the possibility of Mustang I kits being shipped over and assembled in the UK, with Rolls-Royce installing the Merlin in the airframe. But since North American were not far behind RR in testing a Merlin Mustang I think the decision was to allow NAA to re-engineer the Mustang where appropriate and build the production models.
OldSkeptic
Senior Airman
- 509
- May 17, 2010
When? In 1939, or 1940 or 1941 or 1942 or even most of 1943 I'd take the Spitfire .. because it existed then.
The Hellcat wasn't even a dream in the designers eyes in the first few years of the war.
Late war, over Europe it would have been slaughtered. It could barely make 400mph.
Fine against also ran 300mph zero, against an (equivalent time) Fw-190d or late 109G .. a target.
The sort of plane the Luftwaffe expertane would have relegated to the juniors as a training exercise, while they carefully watched the skies for the Spits, Mustangs and Tempests.
parsifal
Colonel
That is just a wrong statement too. Hellcats only saw limited service in Europe, but there was extensive use of Wildcats, which even i admit is a significantly lower performing aircraft. There weree also considerable numbers of hurricanes up against bf 109fs FW190As and Bf109gs. Neither the Wildcat or the Hurricane (similar aircraft in terms of performance) were ever considered a target by the Germans. They undertook some pretty hazardous operations, and whilst losses were heavy (for the hurricae) were able to complete their respective missions with few mission defeats.
This is the same argument in another guise. Fighters are important, and they can shoot down enemy aircraft. but they dont win air campaigns (with the singular exception of the Mustang, which makes it a very unique aircraft). There is no evidence in 1944, of the germans being able to do any decisive shoot downs from which they could then claim even air parity. 1944 was the year of defeat for the LW. They did most of the dying, not the other way around in that year.
Hellcats rank pretty high in the performance rankings for the allies, there is no reason to say they would suffer unreasonable losses in Europe compared to other types.
This is the same argument in another guise. Fighters are important, and they can shoot down enemy aircraft. but they dont win air campaigns (with the singular exception of the Mustang, which makes it a very unique aircraft). There is no evidence in 1944, of the germans being able to do any decisive shoot downs from which they could then claim even air parity. 1944 was the year of defeat for the LW. They did most of the dying, not the other way around in that year.
Hellcats rank pretty high in the performance rankings for the allies, there is no reason to say they would suffer unreasonable losses in Europe compared to other types.
DonL
Banned
Sorry parsifal,
but at North Africa the LW could take air superiority with relative less effort with the JG 27 (till September 1941 only the half of the Squadron and only Bf109 E's).
The Bf 109 F-4 was clearly superior to the Hurricane II and the pilots didn't fear or had much respect neither to the Hurricane II nor to the P40.
From pilot statements, they had some kind of respect, but they found both types easy to fight with the Friedrich.
Also that only one Geschwader was able to take air superiority don't speak for the Hurricanes.
It was much much harder for the LW and the JG27 after the arriving of Spit's in numbers summer/autumn 1942 and the germans lost air superiority.
THe kill ratio of the Friedrich was 4:1 or better against both types (Hurricanes and P40).
but at North Africa the LW could take air superiority with relative less effort with the JG 27 (till September 1941 only the half of the Squadron and only Bf109 E's).
The Bf 109 F-4 was clearly superior to the Hurricane II and the pilots didn't fear or had much respect neither to the Hurricane II nor to the P40.
From pilot statements, they had some kind of respect, but they found both types easy to fight with the Friedrich.
Also that only one Geschwader was able to take air superiority don't speak for the Hurricanes.
It was much much harder for the LW and the JG27 after the arriving of Spit's in numbers summer/autumn 1942 and the germans lost air superiority.
THe kill ratio of the Friedrich was 4:1 or better against both types (Hurricanes and P40).
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parsifal
Colonel
For USN F6Fs, the only action over Europe transpired during the invasion of southern France in August 1944. USS Tulagi with VOF-1 (Lieut. Comdr. WF Bringle, USN) and USS Kasaan Bay embarking VF-74 (Lieut. Comdr. HB Bass, USN), both squadrons, operating F6F-5s, provided coverage for the landings. VF-74 also operated a 7-plane F6F-3N night fighter detachment from Ajaccio on the island of Corsica. On the day of the invasion, 15 August, VF-74 flew 60 sorties, VOF-1, 40 sorties, all ground support missions.
On the morning of 19 August, a four-plane division of VOF-1 pilots spotted the first German aircraft, three He-111s. The Americans were too short on fuel and could not attack. Two of the Americans were forced to land on HMS Emperor due to their fuel state. Later that day, two He-111's were spotted by another VOF-1 division and were promptly shot down, this occurring near the village of Vienne. Lieut. Poucel and Ens. Wood teamed up to bring down one and Ens. Robinson brought down the second. Soon thereafter, in the same vicinity, Ens. Wood shot down a third He-111 that had made the mistake of appearing on the scene. That same morning, a four-plane division of VF-74 pilots led by Lieut. Comdr. Bass brought down an Ju-88, sharing the kill, and in the afternoon another division attacked a Do-217 with split credits to going to Lieut. (j.g.) Castanedo and Ens. Hilliard.
On 21 August, pilots from VOF-1 shot down three Ju-52 transports north of Marseille. Two were credited to Lieut. (j.g.) Olszewski; one went to Ens. Yenter. Operating for two weeks in support of the invasion, these two squadrons were credited with destroying 825 trucks and vehicles, damaging 334 more and destroying or otherwise immobilizing 84 locomotives. German aircraft shot down were: VOF-1: 6, VF-74: 2.
Although the two navy squadrons lost some 17 aircraft, combined, all were to ground fire or operational accidents. This in itself says volumes as to why fighters in themselves are generally not the main cause of losses, but thats another story. There were none shot down by German aircraft. Among the 7 pilots lost (2 from VOF-1 and 5 from VF-74) was the CO of VF-74, Lieut. Comdr. H. Brinkley Bass, USNA 1938, twice awarded the Navy Cross in early actions including Operation Torch, killed by antiaircraft fire while strafing near Chamelet on 20 August.
There were no US, USN or otherwise, F4Us in action in the European Theater.
The Fleet Air Arm employed the F6F and also the F4U. The only fighter-to-fighter FAA F6F action took place in May 1944. On 8 May, F6F's from the Fleet Air Arm's No. 800 Squadron (Lieut. Comdr. SJ Hall, DSC, RN), off HMS Emperor, while escorting a flight of Barracudas was attacked by a mixed group of about 30 Me-109's and FW-190's. Two F6F's were lost, one, probably, to anti-aircraft fire (one source indicates that both F6Fs were lost in a mid-air collision, not to any German fire of any kind); the Germans reportedly lost 2 Me-109's and one FW-190. The FW-190 was claimed by Sub-Lieut. Ritchie.
On 14 May, 800 Squadron's leading scorer, Sub-Lieut. Ritchie (now with 4.5 victories) added an He-115 to his tally and the shared another He-115 with the CO of 804 Squadron, Lieut. Comdr. Orr, giving him a total of 6 victories for the war.
Prior to these actions, FAA F6F's were used for anti-aircraft suppression on raids against Tirpitz on 3 April 44 (Operation Tungsten). These included - from Emperor - 800 Squadron (Lieut. Comdr. Hall) and 804 Squadron (Lieut. Comdr. SG Orr, DSC, RNVR).
FAA F4U's also participated in Operation Tungsten with 1834 Squadron (Lieut. Comdr. PN Charlton, DFC, RN) and 1836 Squadron (Lieut. Comdr. CC Tomkinson, RNVR) off Victorious, flying high cover for the raid. This was a role the FAA Corsairs of 1841 Squadron (Lieut. Comdr. RL Bigg-Wither, DCS bar, RN) would repeat, flying off Formidable in Operation Mascot on 17 July and with 1841 joined by 1842 Squadron (Lieut. Comdr. AMcD Garland, RN) in Operation Goodwood in late August. No contact was made with any German aircraft. Indeed, the FAA F4U's never did tangle with any German aircraft, though not for lack of trying.
On the morning of 19 August, a four-plane division of VOF-1 pilots spotted the first German aircraft, three He-111s. The Americans were too short on fuel and could not attack. Two of the Americans were forced to land on HMS Emperor due to their fuel state. Later that day, two He-111's were spotted by another VOF-1 division and were promptly shot down, this occurring near the village of Vienne. Lieut. Poucel and Ens. Wood teamed up to bring down one and Ens. Robinson brought down the second. Soon thereafter, in the same vicinity, Ens. Wood shot down a third He-111 that had made the mistake of appearing on the scene. That same morning, a four-plane division of VF-74 pilots led by Lieut. Comdr. Bass brought down an Ju-88, sharing the kill, and in the afternoon another division attacked a Do-217 with split credits to going to Lieut. (j.g.) Castanedo and Ens. Hilliard.
On 21 August, pilots from VOF-1 shot down three Ju-52 transports north of Marseille. Two were credited to Lieut. (j.g.) Olszewski; one went to Ens. Yenter. Operating for two weeks in support of the invasion, these two squadrons were credited with destroying 825 trucks and vehicles, damaging 334 more and destroying or otherwise immobilizing 84 locomotives. German aircraft shot down were: VOF-1: 6, VF-74: 2.
Although the two navy squadrons lost some 17 aircraft, combined, all were to ground fire or operational accidents. This in itself says volumes as to why fighters in themselves are generally not the main cause of losses, but thats another story. There were none shot down by German aircraft. Among the 7 pilots lost (2 from VOF-1 and 5 from VF-74) was the CO of VF-74, Lieut. Comdr. H. Brinkley Bass, USNA 1938, twice awarded the Navy Cross in early actions including Operation Torch, killed by antiaircraft fire while strafing near Chamelet on 20 August.
There were no US, USN or otherwise, F4Us in action in the European Theater.
The Fleet Air Arm employed the F6F and also the F4U. The only fighter-to-fighter FAA F6F action took place in May 1944. On 8 May, F6F's from the Fleet Air Arm's No. 800 Squadron (Lieut. Comdr. SJ Hall, DSC, RN), off HMS Emperor, while escorting a flight of Barracudas was attacked by a mixed group of about 30 Me-109's and FW-190's. Two F6F's were lost, one, probably, to anti-aircraft fire (one source indicates that both F6Fs were lost in a mid-air collision, not to any German fire of any kind); the Germans reportedly lost 2 Me-109's and one FW-190. The FW-190 was claimed by Sub-Lieut. Ritchie.
On 14 May, 800 Squadron's leading scorer, Sub-Lieut. Ritchie (now with 4.5 victories) added an He-115 to his tally and the shared another He-115 with the CO of 804 Squadron, Lieut. Comdr. Orr, giving him a total of 6 victories for the war.
Prior to these actions, FAA F6F's were used for anti-aircraft suppression on raids against Tirpitz on 3 April 44 (Operation Tungsten). These included - from Emperor - 800 Squadron (Lieut. Comdr. Hall) and 804 Squadron (Lieut. Comdr. SG Orr, DSC, RNVR).
FAA F4U's also participated in Operation Tungsten with 1834 Squadron (Lieut. Comdr. PN Charlton, DFC, RN) and 1836 Squadron (Lieut. Comdr. CC Tomkinson, RNVR) off Victorious, flying high cover for the raid. This was a role the FAA Corsairs of 1841 Squadron (Lieut. Comdr. RL Bigg-Wither, DCS bar, RN) would repeat, flying off Formidable in Operation Mascot on 17 July and with 1841 joined by 1842 Squadron (Lieut. Comdr. AMcD Garland, RN) in Operation Goodwood in late August. No contact was made with any German aircraft. Indeed, the FAA F4U's never did tangle with any German aircraft, though not for lack of trying.
parsifal
Colonel
Greetings fellow quacksalver....you are back,
I assume you mean September 1941
Over malta, it was pretty dire, however LW claims just dont reconcile to the numbers of Hurricanes actually delivered. The LW claim 42 Hurricanes shot over Malta Jan to May, more than half credited to the JG26 leader (muncheberg???) However, that number greatly exceeds the actual number of Hurricanes deployed to the island. Beginning in November 1940, 12 were flown off Argus, however only 4 arrived at the island. After the arrival of the LW, a further reinforcement was flown in from Ark Royal. 12 flown off, 11 arriving at malta.
In March the RAF records that 5 Hurricanes were also lost in operational accidents. I dont have the figures for the other months, at least in a compllete form. On the 27 March a further 24 Hurricanes were despatched to Malta from Ark Royal, 1 was lost enroute. There was no further reinforcement of the island until after June.
At the end of May, the RAF has on strength either 16 or 19 Hurricanes on the island.
Net total reinfoircements of hurricanes to the island November 1940-June 1941 was 48 hurricanes, 15 known losses to noncombat related causes but more very likley. There were 19 left available at the end, so the maximum possible number of shoot downs by the LW in that time is 14 aircraft. If we assume non combat losses for April and May to be about 4 a/c for each month, then the LW may have shot down a maximum of 6-9 Hurricanes in that 6 month period.
Polmar says that Me 109Es were the initial SE fighters for FKX, arriving at the end of January. There were already 26 Me 110s at that time. Between January and June 1941 Berg records that the following fighter German fighter reinforcements were delivered to the TO
March 32 Bf110
April: 40 Bf109
May: 42Bf109, 18Bf110
The whole reason for the germans attacking Malta was to suppress the island and render it inneffective as a forward allied base. In order to do that they needed to stop the flow of supplies getting to the island. In that period, November'40 to June 1941, there are 7 convoys arriving Malta. Despite the clear superiority of the LW over the RAF in both numbers and quality, their advantage is not achieving much at all. Italian shipping continues to be lost at a steady rate, and LW activity does not prevent Force K and the Subs coninuing operations effectively from the island through to the end of May
In the same period, the MTO receives the following Tomahawk and Hurricanes (not including the Hurricane Is - not IIs that ive mentioned)
Jan 22 Hurri I
Feb 18 Hurri I
Mar 6 Hurri I
April:46 Hurri I, 25 Tomahawks
May: 65 Hurri I 21 Tomahawak, 16 Beafighter I
I dont know a lot about the Hurricane operations in the western Desrt at this time, but I do know a little about the Tomahawk operations. In June, AFAIK there were two squadrons equipped 250 sqn (RAF) and 3 Squadron (RAAF). These two squadrons lost 6 Tomahawks to enemy fighters June to Septemeber and claimed 17 aircraft shot down. I dont call that winning air superiority, on the basis of numbers. And from June through to November, Rommel was unable to make any significant gains on the ground, so strategically the Germans failed to capitalize at all on the claimed air superiority you are suggesting. far from it. it that period there were several failed attempts to take Tobruk, and the British felt strong enough to mount their own offensive (albeit it was unsuccessful). Thats hardly the stuff that axis air superiority should lead to. If they did have it, which I refurte that they did, they did nothing useful with it.
Hmm, that too doesnt add up completely. I agree that the F-4 was superior in performance, but I dont think that total losses per sortie for either side were that significantly different. Caldwells combat experiences belie your claims
"On 26 June 1941, while escorting bombers attacking Gazala, Libya, Caldwell destroyed an aircraft in air-to-air combat for the first time, during his 30th sortie. He downed a German Messerschmitt Bf 109E, piloted by Leutnant Heinz Schmidt of I gruppe, Jagdgeschwader 27 (JG 27), over Capuzzo, he followed this claim with a 'half share' of a Bf 110 on III./ZG 26 and 2 Ju-87s of II./Sturzkampfgeschwader 2 (StG 2—Dive Bomber Wing 2) on 30 June.
While flying to his base alone, over north west Egypt on 29 August 1941, Caldwell was attacked by two Bf 109s, in a simultaneous approach at right angles. His attackers included one of Germany's most famous Experte ("expert", or ace), Leutnant Werner Schröer, also of JG 27, in a Bf 109E-7. Caldwell sustained three separate wounds from ammunition fragments and or shrapnel; his Tomahawk was hit by more than 100 7.9 mm bullets and five 20 mm cannon shells, but he shot down Schröer's wingman, and heavily damaged Schröer's "Black 8", causing Schröer to disengage. On 23 November, Caldwell shot down an Experte, Hauptmann Wolfgang Lippert, Gruppenkommandeur (Group Commander) of II./JG 27, who bailed out. Lippert had struck the stabiliser and following capture had his legs amputated but ten days later a gangrene infection set in and he died on 3 December.For this action Caldwell was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross. Caldwell shot down five Junkers Ju 87 (Stuka) dive bombers in a matter of minutes on 5 December. For this he was awarded a Bar to his DFC.
Caldwell scored another striking victory in February 1942, while leading a formation of 11 Kittyhawks from 112 Sqn (Pole) and 3 Sqn (RAAF). Over Gazala, he sighted a schwarm of Bf 109Fs flying some 2,000 ft higher. Caldwell immediately nosed into a shallow dive, applied maximum power and boost, then pulled his Kittyhawk up into a vertical climb. With his P-40 "hanging from its propeller," he fired a burst at a 109 flown by Leutnant Hans-Arnold Stahlschmidt of I./JG 27, who was lagging behind the others. Stahlschmidt's fighter "shuddered like a carpet being whacked with a beater" before spinning out of control. Although the Kittyhawk pilots thought that the 109 had crashed inside Allied lines, Stahlschmidt was able to crash-land in friendly territory."
When flown by a good pilot, the Kittyhawk, and the earlier Tomahawak was not "intimiidated" at all by the german aircraft. Caldwell
Well the above actions disprove the claim. If air superiority had been achieved, the allies would not be able to patrol, and would not have been able to inflict such heavy air defeats on the Germans. I fear just another Quacksalving effort here
It was much much harder for the LW and the JG27 after the arriving of Spit's in numbers summer/autumn 1942 and the germans lost air superiority.
Over Malta the Germans might have shot down 6 Hurricanes in air combat January to June 1941. Over the western desert, June to the end of August the two P-40 squadrons lost 6 aircraft to enemy fighters, with just one man very nearly eaqualling that loss rate single handed. More than a little quackslaving going on here isnt there....
I assume you mean September 1941
Over malta, it was pretty dire, however LW claims just dont reconcile to the numbers of Hurricanes actually delivered. The LW claim 42 Hurricanes shot over Malta Jan to May, more than half credited to the JG26 leader (muncheberg???) However, that number greatly exceeds the actual number of Hurricanes deployed to the island. Beginning in November 1940, 12 were flown off Argus, however only 4 arrived at the island. After the arrival of the LW, a further reinforcement was flown in from Ark Royal. 12 flown off, 11 arriving at malta.
In March the RAF records that 5 Hurricanes were also lost in operational accidents. I dont have the figures for the other months, at least in a compllete form. On the 27 March a further 24 Hurricanes were despatched to Malta from Ark Royal, 1 was lost enroute. There was no further reinforcement of the island until after June.
At the end of May, the RAF has on strength either 16 or 19 Hurricanes on the island.
Net total reinfoircements of hurricanes to the island November 1940-June 1941 was 48 hurricanes, 15 known losses to noncombat related causes but more very likley. There were 19 left available at the end, so the maximum possible number of shoot downs by the LW in that time is 14 aircraft. If we assume non combat losses for April and May to be about 4 a/c for each month, then the LW may have shot down a maximum of 6-9 Hurricanes in that 6 month period.
Polmar says that Me 109Es were the initial SE fighters for FKX, arriving at the end of January. There were already 26 Me 110s at that time. Between January and June 1941 Berg records that the following fighter German fighter reinforcements were delivered to the TO
March 32 Bf110
April: 40 Bf109
May: 42Bf109, 18Bf110
The whole reason for the germans attacking Malta was to suppress the island and render it inneffective as a forward allied base. In order to do that they needed to stop the flow of supplies getting to the island. In that period, November'40 to June 1941, there are 7 convoys arriving Malta. Despite the clear superiority of the LW over the RAF in both numbers and quality, their advantage is not achieving much at all. Italian shipping continues to be lost at a steady rate, and LW activity does not prevent Force K and the Subs coninuing operations effectively from the island through to the end of May
In the same period, the MTO receives the following Tomahawk and Hurricanes (not including the Hurricane Is - not IIs that ive mentioned)
Jan 22 Hurri I
Feb 18 Hurri I
Mar 6 Hurri I
April:46 Hurri I, 25 Tomahawks
May: 65 Hurri I 21 Tomahawak, 16 Beafighter I
I dont know a lot about the Hurricane operations in the western Desrt at this time, but I do know a little about the Tomahawk operations. In June, AFAIK there were two squadrons equipped 250 sqn (RAF) and 3 Squadron (RAAF). These two squadrons lost 6 Tomahawks to enemy fighters June to Septemeber and claimed 17 aircraft shot down. I dont call that winning air superiority, on the basis of numbers. And from June through to November, Rommel was unable to make any significant gains on the ground, so strategically the Germans failed to capitalize at all on the claimed air superiority you are suggesting. far from it. it that period there were several failed attempts to take Tobruk, and the British felt strong enough to mount their own offensive (albeit it was unsuccessful). Thats hardly the stuff that axis air superiority should lead to. If they did have it, which I refurte that they did, they did nothing useful with it.
.
Hmm, that too doesnt add up completely. I agree that the F-4 was superior in performance, but I dont think that total losses per sortie for either side were that significantly different. Caldwells combat experiences belie your claims
"On 26 June 1941, while escorting bombers attacking Gazala, Libya, Caldwell destroyed an aircraft in air-to-air combat for the first time, during his 30th sortie. He downed a German Messerschmitt Bf 109E, piloted by Leutnant Heinz Schmidt of I gruppe, Jagdgeschwader 27 (JG 27), over Capuzzo, he followed this claim with a 'half share' of a Bf 110 on III./ZG 26 and 2 Ju-87s of II./Sturzkampfgeschwader 2 (StG 2—Dive Bomber Wing 2) on 30 June.
While flying to his base alone, over north west Egypt on 29 August 1941, Caldwell was attacked by two Bf 109s, in a simultaneous approach at right angles. His attackers included one of Germany's most famous Experte ("expert", or ace), Leutnant Werner Schröer, also of JG 27, in a Bf 109E-7. Caldwell sustained three separate wounds from ammunition fragments and or shrapnel; his Tomahawk was hit by more than 100 7.9 mm bullets and five 20 mm cannon shells, but he shot down Schröer's wingman, and heavily damaged Schröer's "Black 8", causing Schröer to disengage. On 23 November, Caldwell shot down an Experte, Hauptmann Wolfgang Lippert, Gruppenkommandeur (Group Commander) of II./JG 27, who bailed out. Lippert had struck the stabiliser and following capture had his legs amputated but ten days later a gangrene infection set in and he died on 3 December.For this action Caldwell was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross. Caldwell shot down five Junkers Ju 87 (Stuka) dive bombers in a matter of minutes on 5 December. For this he was awarded a Bar to his DFC.
Caldwell scored another striking victory in February 1942, while leading a formation of 11 Kittyhawks from 112 Sqn (Pole) and 3 Sqn (RAAF). Over Gazala, he sighted a schwarm of Bf 109Fs flying some 2,000 ft higher. Caldwell immediately nosed into a shallow dive, applied maximum power and boost, then pulled his Kittyhawk up into a vertical climb. With his P-40 "hanging from its propeller," he fired a burst at a 109 flown by Leutnant Hans-Arnold Stahlschmidt of I./JG 27, who was lagging behind the others. Stahlschmidt's fighter "shuddered like a carpet being whacked with a beater" before spinning out of control. Although the Kittyhawk pilots thought that the 109 had crashed inside Allied lines, Stahlschmidt was able to crash-land in friendly territory."
When flown by a good pilot, the Kittyhawk, and the earlier Tomahawak was not "intimiidated" at all by the german aircraft. Caldwell
Well the above actions disprove the claim. If air superiority had been achieved, the allies would not be able to patrol, and would not have been able to inflict such heavy air defeats on the Germans. I fear just another Quacksalving effort here
It was much much harder for the LW and the JG27 after the arriving of Spit's in numbers summer/autumn 1942 and the germans lost air superiority.
.
Over Malta the Germans might have shot down 6 Hurricanes in air combat January to June 1941. Over the western desert, June to the end of August the two P-40 squadrons lost 6 aircraft to enemy fighters, with just one man very nearly eaqualling that loss rate single handed. More than a little quackslaving going on here isnt there....
DonL
Banned
You should take a look at Shore's books, there you can see the kill ratio of the Friedrich from Day to Day against the P40 and Hurricane.
Shores books are very well researched, the P40 and Hurricane were both very clearly outclassed from the Friedrich (Bf 109F)
Your summary to Malta are Bf 109E's and I haven't claimed that the E's had the same performance as the Friedrichs, far from that.
The first Bf 109F's were arriving at the desert September 1941, after that the axis had clearly air superioty after Shore.
Your claims with the aircraft carriers are simply wrong, you can't speed up building a ship with money, if workermen work already 24 hours a day in a 3 worhshift. (3 x 8 hours = 24 hours)
It is impossible from simple maths!
You only can start the building earlier and that is a political decision and you didn't claimed that!
Shores books are very well researched, the P40 and Hurricane were both very clearly outclassed from the Friedrich (Bf 109F)
Your summary to Malta are Bf 109E's and I haven't claimed that the E's had the same performance as the Friedrichs, far from that.
The first Bf 109F's were arriving at the desert September 1941, after that the axis had clearly air superioty after Shore.
Your claims with the aircraft carriers are simply wrong, you can't speed up building a ship with money, if workermen work already 24 hours a day in a 3 worhshift. (3 x 8 hours = 24 hours)
It is impossible from simple maths!
You only can start the building earlier and that is a political decision and you didn't claimed that!
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Readie
Chief Master Sergeant
Its a bit like picking a worthy Shirehorse over a sleek thoroughbred racing horse 
Each has their own value and its horses for courses....
Cheers
John
Each has their own value and its horses for courses....
Cheers
John
Glider
Captain
Looking at HSores books, the official records and other publications there can be no doubt that the 109F was far and away the best fighter in the ME until the Spits started to arrive and reduce the losses.
Using Shores latest book the following are the comments for the days combats mention before
26th June 1941
The RAF claimed 2 x me109 and 1 x G50 destroyed and lost 2 x Hurricane I and 1 x Tomahawk
The Axis forces claimed 1 x Hurricane and 3 x P40 and lost 1 x Me109E crashed, 1 x Me109E 30% damaged, 1 x Me109 25% damaged 2 x Me109 damaged on the ground by bombs
29th August 1941
RAF claimed 1 x me109 and lost 1 x P40 damaged Caldwell was the claimer and flew the damaged aircraft
Axis claimed 1 x P40 Caldwells and lost 2 x Ju88 shot down by AA fire
23rd November this was a very busy day
RAF Claimed Destroyed
6 x Ju87
9 x Me109
1 x G50
1 x Me110
Probable
4 x Ju87
4 x Me109
1 x G50
1 x Ju88
The RAF Lost
12 x Hurricanes
4 x P40
1 x Beaufighter
1 x Boston
Axis Forces Claimed
10 x Hurricanes
7 x P40
1 x Boston
1 x Beaufighter
Axis Forces Lost
2 x Me109
7 x Ju87
1 x Me110
2 x Ju88
1 x G50
1 x S79, 1 x S81 and 1 BR20 destroyed on the ground.
edit - I should add that the Italians figures which are included in the above nos for the 23rd were for for 5 x Hurricanes and 4 x P40. Seeing how close the Axis Claimed figures were for the 23rd compared to the RAF losses the Italians were clearly capable of taking care of themselves
Using Shores latest book the following are the comments for the days combats mention before
26th June 1941
The RAF claimed 2 x me109 and 1 x G50 destroyed and lost 2 x Hurricane I and 1 x Tomahawk
The Axis forces claimed 1 x Hurricane and 3 x P40 and lost 1 x Me109E crashed, 1 x Me109E 30% damaged, 1 x Me109 25% damaged 2 x Me109 damaged on the ground by bombs
29th August 1941
RAF claimed 1 x me109 and lost 1 x P40 damaged Caldwell was the claimer and flew the damaged aircraft
Axis claimed 1 x P40 Caldwells and lost 2 x Ju88 shot down by AA fire
23rd November this was a very busy day
RAF Claimed Destroyed
6 x Ju87
9 x Me109
1 x G50
1 x Me110
Probable
4 x Ju87
4 x Me109
1 x G50
1 x Ju88
The RAF Lost
12 x Hurricanes
4 x P40
1 x Beaufighter
1 x Boston
Axis Forces Claimed
10 x Hurricanes
7 x P40
1 x Boston
1 x Beaufighter
Axis Forces Lost
2 x Me109
7 x Ju87
1 x Me110
2 x Ju88
1 x G50
1 x S79, 1 x S81 and 1 BR20 destroyed on the ground.
edit - I should add that the Italians figures which are included in the above nos for the 23rd were for for 5 x Hurricanes and 4 x P40. Seeing how close the Axis Claimed figures were for the 23rd compared to the RAF losses the Italians were clearly capable of taking care of themselves
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Doubtless the 109/E/F had a big advantage over the Hurricane I. The 109F, especially, would have had an advantage over the Hurricane II and a hyothetical Hurricane I/Merlin 45, but not to the same degree. Improved Hurricanes = higher Luftwaffe losses and lower Commonwealth losses.
Sorry, but I don't see a break down by Hurricane type
I've got the latest edition of Mediterranean Air War and the breakdown is:
7 Hurricane II shot down, (and one crash landed but it is unclear if this was from combat)
2 Hurricane I shot down.
3 Tomahawk shot down
1 Boston III shot down
a few others lost to flak and operationally.
2 x 109f4 shot down
7 x ju-87 shot down
1 x 110 shot down
1 x ju-88 crash landed due aerial combat
1 x ju-88 destroyed by aerial bombing
1 x G50 shot down
3 ( s81, s79, br20) via ground attack.
On the whole, IMHO the Commonwealth won the fight that day, as they mostly lost low cost fighters while inflicting much higher cost losses in return.
BTW, the main combat between the Hurricane IIs and Axis AFs occured when 23 Hurricane IIs intercepted 33 ju-87s escorted by 7 109f4 and 13 G.50s and probably 5 more G.50s. The Hurricanes shot down 7 Ju-87s and one G.50. The Hurricanes stuck to their mission and inflicted severe losses on the Ju-87s.
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Glider
Captain
I admit to not getting that. By your numbers 12 single engined fighter losses against 3 is a win for the RAF?
As for the others it proved once again that the Ju87 when caught by fighters is very vulnerable and the 110 and Ju88 were always going to struggle against single seaters.
Plus of course the Italians should not be ignored
As for the others it proved once again that the Ju87 when caught by fighters is very vulnerable and the 110 and Ju88 were always going to struggle against single seaters.
Plus of course the Italians should not be ignored
Shortround6
Major General
How does putting a crapper engine in the Hurricane I than was put in the Hurricane II help?
Hurricane II: First flew on 11 June 1940 and went into squadron service in September 1940. Granted it takes a while to get them in really large numbers but?
Spitfires with Merlin 45s don't show up until the beginning of 1941. 4-5 months later. Both engines are restricted to 9lbs boost to begin with?
Right, so the UK lost the BofB because the RAF had an unfavourable exchange rate against the 109E?
The Hurricane's mission was to stop or disrupt the Ju-87's mission, which was to destroy the Commonwealth ground forces, and they did that.
I've said this to you several times now, that giving the Merlin 12/45 to the Hurricane I will give it an advantage over the Merlin III - I think that anyone can see that that 12 and especially the 45 would give it better performance than with the III. If the 12 or 45 was no better than the III, why did the Spitfire change to the 12/45?
Glider
Captain
Clearly this has nothing to do with the BOB. Also the Hurricanes took part in a number of missions that day and not all of them were to intercept Ju87's. Some were fighter escort convering bombers and others were fighter sweeps.
