Israel vs Hamas Conflict 2023

[manta22]

And a lot of the grievance is justified on both sides. I am no lover of the Palestinians but when Israelis enter Palestinian owned land, squat on it and then the government steals it and gives it to the squatters that is always going to cause problems.

How would you react if that land was your land and had been in your family- usually for generations.

That said I generally support the Israelis.

"Palestinian owned land,..." that has been in dispute for at least 3,000 years. The displaced people from Palestine could have been taken in by Egypt and other Arab countries but it suited their purpose to keep them displaced so they could be used as pawns.

 

[Escuadrilla Azul]

Why now? Beside that had been said, we should not forget the power struggle in the islamic world between Saudi Arabia and Irán as leading sunni and shia powers and that Saudí Arabia is in an rapprochement with Israel. An attack of this kind will lead to a massive response by Israel with more sufferimg for the civilian paslestines.

Irán will use it to put Saudí Arabia between two choices, side with Israel and the west or side with the paslestines. Not good choices for the saudis.

Beside that, Irán can claim to be the true defenders of the Islam, since they funded and armed the attack.

 

[Snautzer01]

USS Gerald R. Ford (CVN-78) is in the region for support of Israël.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

We will let this thread stand, but just a reminder…

The same rules apply as they do in the Ukraine thread. Stick to discussions directly related to the conflict. Do not get overly political. This thread is not a place to discuss your political grievances.

And most of all remain civil. We still are a very international forum, and there are members here from all walks of life.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Just words are what have brought us to this point. I remember seeing a tee-shirt many years ago that was emblazoned with the words "Kill 'em all- let God sort 'em out!" I'm afraid this is not a far-fetched reaction to what the Iranians, Palestinians, Hamas, Hezbollah and others have perpetrated.

I had thought it so obvious that the dialogue had to be constructive that I didn't need to specify that in detail. I was clearly wrong,.

Needless to say, I disagree with your premise that "just words are what has brought us to this point." I'd argue it's been things from both sides like killings and dispossessions and the erection of what is essentially an apartheid state -- along with a refusal to try to resolve grievances peacefully-- is what has brought about this situation.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

USS Gerald R. Ford (CVN-78) is in the region for support of Israël.

My son's unit is sending a detachment to the Med --planned before this broke out.

 

[drgondog]

I had thought it so obvious that the dialogue had to be constructive that I didn't need to specify that in detail.. I was clearly wrong,.

Needless to say, I disagree with your premise that "just words are what has brought us to this point." I'd argue it's been things from both sides like killings and dispossessions and the erection of what is essentially an apartheid state -- along with a refusal to try to resolve grievances peacefully-- is what has brought about this situation.

While I agree your basic comment, I would clarify that the only path (IMO) to solve the 'grievances peacefully' is a.) Israelis leave, b.) Palestinians leave.. which clearly for 70 years have been non-starters.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

While I agree your basic comment, I would clarify that the only path (IMO) to solve the 'grievances peacefully' is a.) Israelis leave, b.) Palestinians leave.. which clearly for 70 years have been non-starters.

That ain't gonna happen. Translated, your opinion essentially means this is insoluble.

 

[drgondog]

That ain't gonna happen. Translated, your opinion essentially means this is insoluble.

Solvable By 'peaceful means'?

IMO, No.

All generations from infant to elder essentially hate each other. I've watched this Greek Tragedy with varying degrees of scrutiny for nearly 70 years and I haven't seen different postures from "You leave, you took what was ours" from both sides. Every other position (IMO) has been posturing for the camera and funding.

If the Israelis had one wish, it would be for the Palestinians 'just be gone - somewhere, anywhere but here'. If the Palestinians/Hamas had their wish it would be 'every Israeli be dead - now, but preferably painfully'.

 

[Admiral Beez]

If the Israelis had one wish, it would be for the Palestinians 'just be gone - somewhere, anywhere but here

An Israeli final solution to the Palestinian problem, so to speak.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Solvable By 'peaceful means'?

IMO, No.

All generations from infant to elder essentially hate each other. I've watched this Greek Tragedy with varying degrees of scrutiny for nearly 70 years and I haven't seen different postures from "You leave, you took what was ours" from both sides. Every other position (IMO) has been posturing for the camera and funding.

If the Israelis had one wish, it would be for the Palestinians 'just be gone - somewhere, anywhere but here'. If the Palestinians/Hamas had their wish it would be 'every Israeli be dead - now, but preferably painfully'.

Violence ain't solving anything there, either. That has been made apparent over those same seven decades, and many more than that. Both sides have bought into the cycle of violence.

We do have one instance, from 1977, where Arabs and Israelis sat down, talked it out, and came to peace. It's a shame neither side has the current leadership with insight to pursue that avenue.

 

[Snautzer01]

My son's unit is sending a detachment to the Med --planned before this broke out.

If he has to go there, thank him in advance from me please. Wish him well, from a guy he never saw or knows.
That are the ones one can carry as a talisman.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

If he has to go there, thank him in advance from me please. Wish him well, from a guy he never saw or knows.
That are the ones one can carry as a talisman.

I will, but he probably won't be going, low man on the team and probably still needs OJT though he aced Arty school. Your well-wishes are most definitely appreciated.

 

[manta22]

I had thought it so obvious that the dialogue had to be constructive that I didn't need to specify that in detail. I was clearly wrong,.

Needless to say, I disagree with your premise that "just words are what has brought us to this point." I'd argue it's been things from both sides like killings and dispossessions and the erection of what is essentially an apartheid state -- along with a refusal to try to resolve grievances peacefully-- is what has brought about this situation.

There is no moral equivalency in this conflict. You simply cannot negotiate with those whose aim is to kill you. Negotiate to what end? Maybe not killed- only seriously wounded? Strength is the only thing that keeps evil at bay.

 

[manta22]

An Israeli final solution to the Palestinian problem, so to speak.

Extermination? Hardly- just resettlement in other countries.But those other countries crying crocodile tears over the fate of the Palestinians don't want them in their countries, they are too valuable as pawns in their game.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Extermination? Hardly- just resettlement in other countries.But those other countries crying crocodile tears over the fate of the Palestinians don't want them in their countries…

Resettlement WAS the first choice of what the Germans called the Jewish problem. And the Germans at the time nearly mirrored your exact sentiment above, essentially, "those other countries crying crocodile tears over the fate of the (Jews) don't want them in their countries".

There are only two paths for Israel. One, fully integrate the Palestinians into society as equal citizens of Israel, and work to erase the poverty, purposelessness, and despair that drives extremism. Two, round up every Palestinian and push them into Jordan, Egypt, etc. or follow Idi Amin's expulsion of IndoAfricans by giving them all a deadline to leave - Pakistan is doing this now to Afghans. Essentially an Israel version of the Madagascar Plan - Wikipedia.

My vote is for the first, it's the only hope. Israel must come to terms that it is a multiethnic, multi-theistic country. It's not just the homeland for Jews.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Extermination? Hardly- just resettlement in other countries.But those other countries crying crocodile tears over the fate of the Palestinians don't want them in their countries, they are too valuable as pawns in their game.

To play devils advocate here (I'm not saying this is what I support). Why should they be resettled from a place that they have called home for centuries, long before the country of Israel existed?

Maybe there is a very simple solution here. Split the country and create the nation if Palestine out of the former Palestinian Territories that existed before the creation of Israel and the 1967 war.

Again, I'm not saying this is what I support per se, and I have my doubts it would work to begin with. I do think it is worthy of serious consideration as a possible solution though.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

There is no moral equivalency in this conflict. You simply cannot negotiate with those whose aim is to kill you. Negotiate to what end? Maybe not killed- only seriously wounded? Strength is the only thing that keeps evil at bay.

If you don't think Israelis have unjustly killed Palestinians too, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[manta22]

Resettlement WAS the first choice of what the Germans called the Jewish problem. And the Germans at the time nearly mirrored your exact sentiment above, essentially, "those other countries crying crocodile tears over the fate of the (Jews) don't want them in their countries".

There are only two paths for Israel. One, fully integrate the Palestinians into society as equal citizens of Israel, and work to erase the poverty, purposelessness, and despair that drives extremism. Two, round up every Palestinian and push them into Jordan, Egypt, etc. or follow Idi Amin's expulsion of IndoAfricans by giving them all a deadline to leave - Pakistan is doing this now to Afghans. Essentially an Israel version of the Madagascar Plan - Wikipedia.

My vote is for the first, it's the only hope. Israel must come to terms that it is a multiethnic, multi-theistic country. It's not just the homeland for Jews.

Befriending a tiger will not help you when it comes time for dinner.

 

[manta22]

To play devils advocate here (I'm not saying this is what I support). Why should they be resettled from a place that they have called home for centuries, long before the country of Israel existed?

Maybe there is a very simple solution here. Split the country and create the nation if Palestine out of the former Palestinian Territories that existed before the creation of Israel and the 1967 war.

Again, I'm not saying this is what I support per se, and I have my doubts it would work to begin with. I do think it is worthy of serious consideration as a possible solution though.

As I said before, this territory has been in dispute for at least 3,000 years. When more than one people call it "home" it is a recipe for conflict. Does anyone remember that it was the UN that created this present problem?