Me 262 losses due to engine problems?

[tomo pauk]

Is there a reliable (as possible) number of losses of Me 262s that were a direct consequence of it's engines shutting down by themselves? One-engine RTBs (or attempts of RTBs) due to engine quitting on it's own?
Some ballpark numbers are also useful to me, providing these come from an usually reliable source.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Was looking here Messerschmitt Me 262 - Operational History and found this battle's scope to be incredible.

"During March, Me 262 fighter units were able, for the first time, to mount large scale attacks on Allied bomber formations. On 18 March 1945, 37 Me 262s of JG 7 intercepted a force of 1,221 bombers and 632 escorting fighters. They shot down 12 bombers and one fighter for the loss of three Me 262s."

Imagine the size of this force.

 

[Macandy]

Not winning…

"On 7 April 1945 elements of III./JG 7 and I.(J)/KG 54 (totaling some 60 Me 262s) were sent to intercept the fighter escorts accompanying 1,261 bombers over Northern Germany, while the 180-strong fighter formation of Sonderkommando Elbe attacked the bomber forces. The jets claimed some 18 victories but over 60 of the Bf 109 force was destroyed along with 27 Me 262s almost half of those committed. Some 19 pilots were killed or missing, while five were wounded. U.S. losses from all causes were 19 bombers and 8 escort fighters.'

 

[tomo pauk]

Not winning…

"On 7 April 1945 elements of III./JG 7 and I.(J)/KG 54 (totaling some 60 Me 262s) were sent to intercept the fighter escorts accompanying 1,261 bombers over Northern Germany, while the 180-strong fighter formation of Sonderkommando Elbe attacked the bomber forces. The jets claimed some 18 victories but over 60 of the Bf 109 force was destroyed along with 27 Me 262s almost half of those committed. Some 19 pilots were killed or missing, while five were wounded. U.S. losses from all causes were 19 bombers and 8 escort fighters.'

Can't really discern the losses due to engine problems there...

 

[Milosh]

Tomo, there was a Me262 site that had lots of Me262 data. Unfortunately it was shut down for theft of data. Maybe some of the long time members here will remember.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Depending who you talk to, the death of Walter Nowotny might have been due to an engine failure. There's a start!

 

[Denniss]

I believe engine flame-outs were more common than failures but equally dangerous

 

[cammerjeff]

It have a book somewhere that spoke about the training issues with veteran pilot's on the Me 262. The issues included no conversion trainer available until very late in the war, and having to unlearn the techniques that kept you alive for months if not years of operational flying.
Like immediately push the engine throttle(s) forward to full power. If you made sudden throttle movements you would almost be assured to cause at least 1 engine to "flameout" this should not be considered a "failure" but the resaults are the same as you become an easy target for enemy escort fighters

 

[Macandy]

Can't really discern the losses due to engine problems there...

Germanys engine problems were not going to get better, but thousands of Allied jet fighters with engines that didn't crap out after a few hours were about to take the field.
Its all good talking about wunderwaffe, but the USAAF had ordered 5000 F-80's.

 

[Peter Gunn]

Not winning…

"On 7 April 1945 elements of III./JG 7 and I.(J)/KG 54 (totaling some 60 Me 262s) were sent to intercept the fighter escorts accompanying 1,261 bombers over Northern Germany, while the 180-strong fighter formation of Sonderkommando Elbe attacked the bomber forces. The jets claimed some 18 victories but over 60 of the Bf 109 force was destroyed along with 27 Me 262s almost half of those committed. Some 19 pilots were killed or missing, while five were wounded. U.S. losses from all causes were 19 bombers and 8 escort fighters.'

This is what we used to call a good old fashion "Ass kicking".

 

[tomo pauk]

Germanys engine problems were not going to get better, but thousands of Allied jet fighters with engines that didn't crap out after a few hours were about to take the field.
Its all good talking about wunderwaffe, but the USAAF had ordered 5000 F-80's.

Thanks for the non-contribution in this thread.

 

[GregP]

This is what we used to call a good old fashion "Ass kicking".

Adolph Galland, who should know if anybody should know, said that they never had more than 50 Me 262s operational at any one time in an interview.

Of course, ±10 airplanes isn't a big stretch, but 60 would mean the entire force of operational Me 262s were all gathered in one place. That's not very smart in a war when you might be bombed at any time, anywhere.

 

[Vincenzo]

If Galland was talking just of JV 44?

 

[ThomasP]

Could Galland have meant that at any point there were no more than ~50 airframes available to sortie. In other words, between battle & non-battle damage, normal maintenance, lack of fuel, lack of trained pilots. etc? There may have been significantly more airframes deployed to the squadrons, but with the aircraft being in daily use there had to have been a significant % down just for normal maintenance and repair.

Was there a problem of pilot availability for the Me 262 squadrons?

 

[GregP]

What he actually said was they never had more than 50 - 60 operational at any one time in total. I very seriously doubt they would have all been stationed at the same airfield, but they could have easily have taken off from wherever and joined up at some point, assuming they weren't scattered around past reasonable range to do that.

After all, they covered ground quickly once up to altitude and speed, like any jet does.

 

[Milosh]

JV44 was lucky if it had 1 1/2 complete staffels of a/c.. JG7 had many more a/c, 60-70. KG51 a staffel and KG54 2 staffels. Numbers for early April '45.

 

[gruad]

Apparently it was a miracle of engineering that the engines lasted the short time they did. Without proper alloys there had to be crafty design.

The engine availablity was the failure for the 262 with the airframe available way ahead of the engines.

 

[GregP]

Hi Milosh.

Galland's comment said 50 - 60 operational at any one time. A unit COULD have 90 Me 262s and still have less than 50 operational, easily. Galland's comments were an excerpt from an interview, and the interviewer didn't ask detailed questions about Me 262 production or dispatch numbers. So, what we left with is him saying they never had more than 50 - 60 operational at any one time. I take that to mean, basically, for any single mission, and it doesn't mean from one airfield ... it means in total.

Of course, that is Galland's recollection some years after the war. He could be spot on; he could be a bit pessimistic or a bit optimistic. But, I'd bet he is pretty close to the real numbers. Close enough to say they are likely the best estimates we will ever get. Your estimates may vary, of course, and who's to say if you are wrong or right? Not me, for sure.

Cheers.

 

[Andrew Arthy]

Hi,

I did a quick summary of almost 100 of the Me 262 losses from 1944, and they were broken down as follows:

Abandoned and Found by Allied troops at Airfields: 2
Bombing Raids on Airfields: 13
Strafing Attacks on Airfield: 21
Shot down by Enemy Fighters: 9
Cause Unknown, Non-Combat Flight: 14
Cause Unknown, Combat Mission: 14
Engine failure: 10
Collision on Ground: 1
Forced Landing: 1
Crash-landing: 2
Ran out of fuel: 1
Technical issues: 5

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com/earticles

 

[Andrew Arthy]

Hi,

Luftwaffe Serviceable Me 262s, 12 April 1945
1./N.A.Gr. 6 - 1
Stab J.G. 7 - 2
I./J.G. 7 - 24
III./J.G. 7 - 20
I./K.G.(J) 54 - 7
10./N.J.G. 11 - 0
Stab K.G. 51 - 0
I./K.G. 51 - 4
II./K.G. 51 - 0
II./J.G. 7 - 0

See Michael Holm's excellent site for full figures: Einsatzbereitschaft im Bereich Luftflotte Reich, 12.4.45

On 2 April 1945 there were 127 serviceable Me 262s with operational units.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com/earticles