Overlord/D-Day and the Me-262

[kitplane01]

In a different history ...

Lets suppose the Luftwaffe had 300 Me-262s all with fuel, weapons, spare parts and well trained pilots. They're launching from a set of bases that are reasonably safe. These Me-262s are suitable for dive bombing and the pilots practiced in this. Finally, the German High Command is making reasonable decisions with the knowledge they have (but they do fight the war; immediate surrender is not their plan).

Meanwhile, the Allies have landed at Normandy a week ago. And the allies know of the German capabilities (including these Me-262s.)

The D-Day ports are probably the most defended spot in the entire world. And the Me-262 is the best single seat aircraft in the entire world.

How does it go?

1) I assume the Me-262s can get through the CAP of the allies. The allies have to defend during every daylight hour, and the Germans can pick their time. Also, the German plane is just too fast to catch. Do you see the CAP shooting down significant numbers of Me-262s?

2) Can a Me-262 get through the super intense flak? It will be much lots! The allies will have a short warning to get the the guns manned because of radar.

3) Is the correct tactic level bombing or dive bombing? The Me-262 has no bomb sight so I would expect poor accuracy from high level. But I would also expect the Me-262 would be much safer at high altitude, especally since the gunners have never fought a target moving at such high speed. I would expect much better accuracy with a dive bombing attack ... but so much flak!

4) Is the correct target the D-Day ports. They are so heavily defended, and the southern UK ports are all within range too.

4) In the end, use some numbers. Describe the optimum German tactic, and how well it works. How many Me-262s shot down, how many ships heavily damaged?

 

[tomo pauk]

In a different history ...

<snip>

This perhaps belongs more in the What-if sub forum?

 

[Capt. Vick]

Done

 

[tomo pauk]

The D-Day ports are probably the most defended spot in the entire world. And the Me-262 is the best single seat aircraft in the entire world.

How does it go?

Me 262 has a problem if the Allies have a good foothold in France.
In order to hit the ground troops and/or ships, LW needs to deploy the 262s west of Germany proper, meaning that RAF and USAAF will happily go after these LW airbases. Me 262s on the ground likely became just an expensive loss in the 1944 air war in the west.

 

[GrauGeist]

The Me262 is too fast for dive bombing.

In other words, it'll build up too much speed to be effective as well as putting the aircraft and pilot at risk.

Historically, the Me262A-2a was not very accurate as a bomber.

Even the Ar234 had difficulty in accurately bombing the bridge at Remagen.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

The Me262 is too fast for dive bombing.

In other words, it'll build up too much speed to be effective as well as putting the aircraft and pilot at risk.

Historically, the Me262A-2a was not very accurate as a bomber.

Even the Ar234 had difficulty in accurately bombing the bridge at Remagen.

Was the 262 even built to withstand pullout stresses? I'm no expert, but I've never read anything alleging that. With the engines halfway out on the wings, reinforcement would seem to be required.

 

[kitplane01]

Anyone want to hazard a guess with some numbers ... how many Me-262s are lost amd how many ships are lost?

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Easy solution: bomb their airfields. They'll be too busy defending them to attack the beachheads. I don't think there were ever more than 200 262s in operation at any one time -- probably less than that -- so between bombing them on the ground, attriting them in the air, non-combat losses, and overrunning their bases, I don't see many of the jets surviving.

As for Allied casualties, hard to say without getting a better picture of the 262's bombing accuracy.

 

[z42]

We had a pretty similar thread slightly less than two months ago at What if the Luftwaffe gained air superiority during d-day?

For your points:

1-2) Probably the initial success rate will be poor, but crews will quickly learn to apply more lead. Still, it's going to be very hard to hit a fast moving target like a 262. However, we can look at the historical campaign to counter V-1's for guidance. Once they deployed radar gun laying and VT fuzes the success rate shot up quite dramatically.

3) Dive bombing like a Stuka probably doesn't work for a fast aircraft, as the bomb has to be dropped at a quite considerable height in order to have sufficient room to pull up, thus reducing accuracy. However, Germany (and others) had in this time frame developed shallow angle dive bombing along with computing bomb sights suited for this. The German version was apparently called "Stuvi 5B".

4) Copy-pasting my answer to a similar topic in that thread I linked to above:

Anyway, for a bit of napkin calculations, if about 4000 ships participated in the landing, and assuming a 20% casualty rate (sunk or crippled ships) would be required to cause the Allies to abort and turn back, that means the Germans need to cripple or sink 800 ships. If we further assume a success rate of 25% for a strike mission, it means the Germans would need to launch 3200 BT-equipped Me262 missions. Even if we assume every Me262 has time to do two missions (the time window is relatively short, presumably once the Allies start to unload men and equipment on the beachheads truly catastrophical casualties would be required to abort), that still means 1600 operational aircraft.

"BT" here is Bomben Torpedo, a kind of bomb the Germans designed, the idea was to hit the hull of a ship underwater, thus doing much more damage than an similarly sized bomb blast above the water.

 

[kitplane01]

Easy solution: bomb their airfields. They'll be too busy defending them to attack the beachheads. I don't think there were ever more than 200 262s in operation at any one time -- probably less than that -- so between bombing them on the ground, attriting them in the air, non-combat losses, and overrunning their bases, I don't see many of the jets surviving.

As for Allied casualties, hard to say without getting a better picture of the 262's bombing accuracy.

From the original post .... "They're launching from a set of bases that are reasonably safe."

 

[kitplane01]

We had a pretty similar thread slightly less than two months ago at What if the Luftwaffe gained air superiority during d-day?

For your points:

1-2) Probably the initial success rate will be poor, but crews will quickly learn to apply more lead. Still, it's going to be very hard to hit a fast moving target like a 262. However, we can look at the historical campaign to counter V-1's for guidance. Once they deployed radar gun laying and VT fuzes the success rate shot up quite dramatically.

3) Dive bombing like a Stuka probably doesn't work for a fast aircraft, as the bomb has to be dropped at a quite considerable height in order to have sufficient room to pull up, thus reducing accuracy. However, Germany (and others) had in this time frame developed shallow angle dive bombing along with computing bomb sights suited for this. The German version was apparently called "Stuvi 5B".

4) Copy-pasting my answer to a similar topic in that thread I linked to above:



"BT" here is Bomben Torpedo, a kind of bomb the Germans designed, the idea was to hit the hull of a ship underwater, thus doing much more damage than an similarly sized bomb blast above the water.

I agree, there is just about zero chance the Allies turn back. But this scenario is set a week after D-Day. It gives the Germans a week to react and then attack.

But suppose the 300 Me-262s hit, and whatever survive hit again the next day ... and so on. If the Germans could just interrupt fuel and supplies enough, they can win the land war before the Allies get serious with their build-up. How does that play out?

 

[kitplane01]

Anyway, for a bit of napkin calculations, if about 4000 ships participated in the landing, and assuming a 20% casualty rate (sunk or crippled ships) would be required to cause the Allies to abort and turn back, that means the Germans need to cripple or sink 800 ships. If we further assume a success rate of 25% for a strike mission, it means the Germans would need to launch 3200 BT-equipped Me262 missions. Even if we assume every Me262 has time to do two missions (the time window is relatively short, presumably once the Allies start to unload men and equipment on the beachheads truly catastrophical casualties would be required to abort), that still means 1600 operational aircraft.

I've got no argument with your numbers. But picture a different scenario. Not a single day long attack, but a repeated attack, over the course of a week or two. In this scenario, the two most important numbers are "number of ships sunk per Me-262 lost" and "how many ships can the allies lose in a week and keep Normandy supplied".

Any guess what that the numbers are.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

From the original post .... "They're launching from a set of bases that are reasonably safe."

Yabut I'm pretty sure B-17s and Lancasters can range well beyond the Me-262's roughly 300-mile combat radius. They're hitting Berlin and Nuremberg already. And they're already under SHAEF's control. Defend the fields or attack the coast.

 

[tyrodtom]

When the Me-262 was used as a "level " bomber it failed miserably.
And taking the fastest aircraft in the sky and expecting it to dive bomb is not realistic.
It had no dive flaps, or dive aids of any sort, and very likely the structure wouldn't take the stress of a pull out.

 

[kitplane01]

Yabut I'm pretty sure B-17s and Lancasters can range well beyond the Me-262's roughly 300-mile combat radius. They're hitting Berlin and Nuremberg already. And they're already under SHAEF's control. Defend the fields or attack the coast.

Did they use B-17s to attack airfields? And it would be many airfields .. the Germans do know how to distribute airplanes. And airfields are hard targets for high altitude bombers ... the individual airplanes are a small target and the runway is easy-ish to repair.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Did they use B-17s to attack airfields?

This is a what-if. If you want a couple of hundred 262s attacking the invasion fleet in your hypothetical, you need to accept that countermeasures will happen. In a what-if, restricting one side to OTL actions is stacking the deck.

And it would be many airfields .. the Germans do know how to distribute airplanes. And airfields are hard targets for high altitude bombers ... the individual airplanes are a small target and the runway is easy-ish to repair.

How many airfields are you thinking? And heavy bombers can fly lower, too. Hell, if I knew jets were flying off there, I'd fighter-sweep them too for a few days.

And it's not about hitting individual airplanes, or pock-marking runways, but about destroying infrastructure -- fuel storage, ammo depots, maintenance shops, even trucks that tow the jets around. There's a lot more to an airfield than a bit of flat ground and some planes.

200 Me-262s aren't changing much in the scheme of things. Less Allied air-ground support the first month? Well, gosh, that ain't changing much, 'cause hedgerows don't really allow that anyway.

 

[GrauGeist]

On June 6th, the Allies had over one thousand aircraft in action over the French coast.

That number increased over the next several days.

This is an interesting "what if", but by 1944, there was nothing the Germans could do to stop Allied air operations.

The Me262 had a range of 500 miles (or so), this was straight line range and at cruise, which broke down to about 90 minutes. Once it entered combat, that time become 30 minutes.

In order for the Me262 to be effective, it had to operate from foreward bases to compensate for it's limited range, which would put it's bases well within range of the Allied Heavy and medium bombers that were operating during the day of the invasion.
Then came the P-47s and Typhoons - all covered by P-51s and Spitfires.

Historically, only a Rotte of Fw190s made it over the landing beach that morning and it was a high-speed pass and thy got the hell out as fast as possible.

The following days, the Luftwaffe did conduct bombing attacks on the invasion fleet, but the AA and CAP over the fleet made it nearly impossible to inflict any damage and/or survive.

An Me262, He280, Ar234 or even an Hs132 was not going to change the outcome, even if the Luftwaffe had scores of them.

 

[WARSPITER]

An example of the months leading up to D-day in Western Europe;

Luftflotte 3 was the main defence unit of the Luftwaffe for the area and in March 1944 alone lost 107 planes
to allied attacks on airfields. Add to this the following ;

One bridge out of nine still usable (between Rouen and Paris)
Paris area rail junctions completely destroyed along with 399 railway engines
Rolling stock for the railroads destroyed - number not specified but rated as devastating losses
Phone and other communication facilities destroyed

These are from German reports, not allied air force claims and allied sorties were 2 to 3,000 per day.
By D-day Luftflotte 3 had at best, a disadvantage against enemy aircraft of 20:1.
When large attacks came in the ratio went as high as 40:1 against.

This was a clear indication of what was coming and yet priority of air resources still went to the defence
of the Reich. Had 300 or more 262 been available they would be more likely to go straight to fighter
units covering Germany itself.

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

D-Day Allied Aircraft strength From Max Hastings, Overlord

Type	AF	total	operational	with crew
Hvy Bomb	8th	2,578​	2,243​	1,947​
Ftr	8th	1,144​	961​	961​
Med B	9th	624​	513​	467​
Lt Bomb	9th	228​	165​	156​
Ftr	9th	1,487​	1,132​	1,123​
Total	US	6,061​	5,014​	4,654​
Hvy Bomb	BC	1,380​	1,212​	1,183​
Lt Bomb	BC	134​	98​	97​
Med B	2nd TAF	88​	67​	67​
Lt Bomb	2nd TAF	160​	146​	146​
Ftr	2nd TAF	1,006​	856​	831​
Ftr	ADGB	1,072​	875​	796​
Total	RAF	3,840​	3,254​	3,120​
Total	Allied	9,901​	8,268​	7,774​

Me262 were easily identifable by radar given how much faster they moved, carrying bombs reduced the top speed to allied piston engine interception speeds. Me262 fighter 3 tons of load, plus 1 ton of bombs, say 3 tons of supplies consumed per sortie, add spare parts and other supplies say 1,000 tons for 300 sorties, not all of which will be successful. All Me262 airfields within range of Spitfires based in Normandy, the French rail system was centred on Paris, the better supplied airfields were those closer to Britain than those south east of Normandy. June 1944 allied tonnage dropped on French rail, canal and bridge targets, 34,037.5, plus an unknown amount by 2nd TAF and ADGB

Allied tonnage on airfields 1944
16,912.8 Bomber Command (1,064.3 tons in June)
58,512.4 8th AF (16,218.2 tons in June)
7,139.6 9th AF (183.7 tons in June)
n/a 2nd TAF
n/a ADGB/Fighter Command

Allied tonnage dropped June 1944
64,008.7 Bomber Command
58,271.0 8th AF
23,059.0 9th AF
3,882.4 ADGB/Fighter Command/2nd TAF Day
1,820.2 ADGB/Fighter Command/2nd TAF Night
151,041.3 Total
How the 1,056 rockets reported fired by the RAF are accounted for is unclear.

The RAF translated the Luftwaffe Quartermaster loss reports. Luftflotte 3 losses on ground January to June 1944.

Attack	Bombs	Bombs	Strafe	Strafe
Month	Dest.	Dam.	Dest.	Dam.
Jan-44​	17​	26​	1​
Feb-44​	25​	27​	4​	6​
Mar-44​	89​	59​	21​	21​
Apr-44​	83​	38​	39​	41​
May-44​	105​	44​	19​	17​
Jun-44​	101​	84​	50​	29​
Total	420​	278​	134​	114​

Luftflotte 3 posture in June 1944 can probably best be seen by noting total all cause losses 998 aircraft, of which 11 were to AA fire, plus some of the 313 MIA.

6 June losses for Luftflotte 3

Unit

Aircraft

MIA

E/A

E/A

Bombs

Bombs

Strafe

Strafe

Ops Not En.

Ops Not En.

Non ops

Non ops

Total

Total

Unit

Aircraft

MIA

Dest.

Dam.

Dest.

Dam.

Dest.

Dam.

Dest.

Dam.

Dest.

Dam.

Dest.

Dam.

LR Recon

Ju88

1​

1​

2​

0​

SE Fighter

Bf109

1​

1​

2​

1​

1​

1​

3​

4​

SE Fighter

Fw190

2​

5​

2​

1​

1​

5​

1​

1​

11​

7​

TE Fighter

Ju88

3​

3​

0​

Night Fighter

He219

1​

1​

0​

Night Fighter

Bf110

1​

2​

1​

1​

2​

3​

Gd Atk

Fw190

5​

2​

5​

2​

Bomber

Do217

1​

1​

1​

1​

Bomber

Fw190

1​

1​

0​

Bomber

Ju88

5​

1​

6​

0​

Bomber

Ju188

2​

2​

1​

2​

3​

Bomber

Me410

1​

1​

1​

2​

1​

All

Total

14​

14​

4​

2​

0​

1​

3​

5​

11​

3​

3​

39​

21​

Roger Freeman notes the 8th Air Force fighters claimed 26 kills in the air and 4 destroyed on the ground, Ken Rust says the 9th Air Force claimed 5 kills (2 by medium bombers, 3 by reconnaissance aircraft), while RAF fighters claimed 6 kills during the day and 12 at night.

 

[cherry blossom]

As others have noted, we have been at least near here before where I tried to make a similar argument without suggesting steep dive bombing and, I think it is fair to say, received more criticism than support. I agree that Me 262 bases in France would have suffered heavy attack and believe that that would be greatest restrain on this attempt to change history.

However, I suspect that a relatively long legged reconnaissance version of the Me 262 could have been built. The fighter versions had two 900 litre armoured fuel tanks and smaller, 600 litre and 170 litre auxiliary tanks. There was a two seat night fighter variant flown in March 1945 with an extended fuselage, which had 4400 litres (including a 900 litre towed drop tank) and was accepted for production. As a reconnaissance version wouldn't need cannon, forward armour or the second seat, it seems likely that a pure reconnaissance version could carry even more fuel and could evade Spitfires to watch all the British ports on the Chanel and prevent surprises.