P-47N Thunderbolt vs. F4U-4 Corsair - Which was superior?

[DAB400]

RG_Lunatic:

Are you saying that the Spitfire XIV, Tempest, P-51B, and P-38 could exceed the P-47 in dive speed? I don't think so but at present can offer nothing more in support than what appears below.

Chuck Hawks wrote an article "The Best Fighter Planes of World War II." In it, he favored the P-51. He received a letter from Lt. Rip Collins who piloted both P-51's and P-47's in the 35th Fighter Group in the Pacific. Lt. Collins took him to task citing several reasons why the P-47 was a better fighter than the P-51. See number 4 below. If the Corsair's dive speed was "comparable to the P-51" as you mentioned, then Lt. Collins claim would indicate that the P-47 was superior to the Corsair in a dive.


1. The Republic Thunderbolt had a radial engine that could take hits and keep on running. I know of an actual case where a Jug brought a pilot back from Borneo after 8 hours in the air. The pilot landed with the master cylinder and three other cylinders blown out of commission. But the Jug kept chugging along, running well enough to bring its pilot back safely to his base at Morotai. I was there.

2. The Jug's radial engine was air cooled, instead of liquid cooled with a radiator system, like the Mustang's V-12. This is significant because one small caliber hit on an aluminum cooling line in a Mustang would let the coolant leak out, and when the coolant was gone, the engine seized, and the show was over. I took a small caliber hit in a coolant tube over Formosa (Taiwan). When I landed back at base, my crew chief said, "Lieutenant, did you know you got hit?" I replied, "No." He continued, "You took a small caliber shell in the coolant tube on the right side of the engine. I'd give you between 10 and 15 minutes flying time remaining." I had just flown from Formosa, over nothing but the Pacific Ocean, to our fighter strip on Okinawa.

3. The P-47 could fly higher than the P-51. With its huge turbocharger, it could climb to over 40,000 feet. You could just look down at your enemy in a stall and smile.

4. The Jug could out dive the Mustang. As a matter of fact, it could out dive any enemy fighter, and at 7.5 tons loaded, it dove fast! I have personally been in a dive at what we called the "state of compressibility," at nearly 700 mph indicated air speed. I was scared to death, but with a tiny bit of throttle, I pulled it out at about 2,000-foot altitude, literally screaming through the sky.

5. The Thunderbolt had eight .50's. The Mustang had six. That's 33 1/3% more firepower. This made a major difference.

6. The later model Thunderbolt's could carry and deliver 2,500 pounds of bombs. (One 1,000-lb. bomb on each wing, and one 500 lb. bomb under the belly.) This was a maximum load and you had to use water injection to get airborne. But it would do this with sufficient runway. I have done this myself.

In addition to being a first class fighter, it was also a superb fighter-bomber and ground level strafer. Jugs practically wiped out the German and Italian railroads. I have strafed Japanese trains, troops, ships, gunboats, warships, airfields, ammo dumps, hangers, antiaircraft installations, you name it. I felt secure in my P-47.

7. The P-47 was larger and much stronger, in case of a crash landing. The Jug was built like a machined tool. Mustangs had a lot of sheet metal stamped out parts, and were more lightweight in construction. One example was the throttle arm. You can see the difference. What does all this mean? The safety of the fighter pilot.

8. The Thunderbolt had no "scoop" under the bottom. You can imagine what happens during a crash landing if your wheels would not come down (due to damage or mechanical trouble). On landing, it could make the P-51 nose over in the dirt as the scoop drags into the earth. In water (and I flew over the Pacific Ocean most of my 92 combat missions), it could cause trouble in a crash landing because the air scoop would be the first part of the aircraft to hit the water. Instead of a smooth belly landing, anything might happen.

9. The Thunderbolt had a much larger, roomier cockpit. You were comfortable in the big Jug cockpit. In my Mustang, my shoulders almost scraped the sides on the right and left. I was cramped in with all my "gear." I could not move around like I could in the P-47. I found the ability to move a little bit very desirable, especially on seven and eight hour missions.

10. The Mustang went from 1,150-horse power Allison engines to the Packard built Rolls-Royce Merlin engine that had 1,590 hp. The Thunderbolt started out with a 2,000 hp Pratt Whitney engine, and ended up with 2,800 war emergency hp with water injection. That's close to twice the power.

11. The Jug had a very wide landing gear. This made it easy to land just about anywhere, with no tendency to ground loop. Many times we had to land on rice paddies and irregular ground. When you set the Thunderbolt down, it was down. In the Far East, England, Africa, and Italy, this helped you get down and walk away from it. To me, that was very important for the safety of the pilot.

12. The Jug's record against all opposing aircraft is remarkable. The ratio of kills to losses was unmistakably a winner. Thunderbolt pilots destroyed a total of 11,874 enemy aircraft, over 9,000 trains, and 160,000 vehicles.

I don't have the numbers and research you do here. My info is anecdotal. I have an uncle, now passed on, who flew both. He was born in 1922, started off in the WWII draft as an army recruit and volunteered for the air corps. By the time the war was over he was flying P47s. He later flew in Korea and finally F4s in Vietnam. I don't remember the specifics, but I remember the stories.

He often talked about how the jug was better due to more armament, no liquid cooling, and maximum speed in a dive. He talked about the zone of compressibility and how it would approach mach in a dive.

Seems like Davidicus also relies significantly on direct recorded statements from pilots that flew both.

Anonymous Lunatic, don't know about all the moves, URLs, and saved info you can't find. But your assertions seem incredible.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

You are replying to post that is 18 years old. No problem with that, but don't expect a response. Especially since neither Davidicus or Lunatic are active anymore.

 

[GrauGeist]

The Me 262 was far and away the superior airplane to the Ta 152, and 100 Me 262s were lost to Allied piston fighters against 542 victories for the jet. Even being over 100 mph faster than the competition wasn't enough against overwhelmingly superior numbers of lesser opposition.

And the majority of those Me262 losses occurred during the landing or take-off cycle (the RAF's term was "Rat Catching").

Seeing some of these ancient threads come to life (even if for a moment) is kind of fun.

 

[pbehn]

And the majority of those Me262 losses occurred during the landing or take-off cycle (the RAF's term was "Rat Catching").

Seeing some of these ancient threads come to life (even if for a moment) is kind of fun.

Those operations were suspended when the Germans set up corridors of AA. If you dont control your base airfields even an F-35 would lose against huge numbers of prop aircraft, eventually you run out of stuff and have to land.

 

[GrauGeist]

Those operations were suspended when the Germans set up corridors of AA. If you dont control your base airfields even an F-35 would lose against huge numbers of prop aircraft, eventually you run out of stuff and have to land.

The killing zones set up by the Luftwaffe was a huge deterrent, but Tiffy and Jug drivers still tore the hell out of the 262s in the landing pattern.

 

[DAB400]

You are replying to post that is 18 years old. No problem with that, but don't expect a response. Especially since neither Davidicus or Lunatic are active anymore.

Appreciate you pointing that out. That's fine by me, and maybe supports the value of my post. There are few people around these days that have flown this WWII-era aircraft. So no more living first hand accounts. And now there getting to be fewer and fewer people that knew that generation of people. We are almost to the point where only written history recalls those aircraft, those pilots, and the events surrounding them.

Uncle often talked about his time in Germany around the Nazi's Dachau main concentration camp. Uncle arrived on scene after liberation and attested to seeing the now liberated prisoners cycled out, the work around investigating and documenting the mass graves, medical experiments, and torture, and the physical evidence of the crematorium. Dachau was the longest running of the camps, having opened in 1933. In its early days its mission was to house the Nazi's political opponents, guilt being established simply by political affiliation, being clergy, or being Jewish. Its beginnings as a facility to house those who are guilty of nothing other than political dissent continues to stand as a warning to us all, and the German government is doing the world a service by making this facility open to the public today.

Other groups were added as Nazi control expanded. At its height, Dachau housed more Poles than anything else. After liberation it was used as an allied base. Uncle worked in that area and was in command of a unit of African American enlisted. They were charged with seizing property from local Nazi party members in the name of war reparations. He described that these local German people who were Nazi party members would protest the property seizure by saying that they didn't know what was happening inside the camp. Uncle's counter to that, through an interpreter, would be that the camp grounds were visible and that the smell of dead and burning human bodies was obvious and inescapable. He and his troops then seized belongings, often including the entire house. This regularly elicited strong emotional responses from the Nazi party members and led to then taking extreme actions that resulted in arrest or death.

Uncle flew the P47, the P51, the F4 primarily and was checked off on other aircraft as well. He described these events to me many times. These things happened.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

For about 30 years I lived about 2 hours from Dachau. I have visited it many times. Very solemn place.

 

[drgondog]

For about 30 years I lived about 2 hours from Dachau. I have visited it many times. Very solemn place.

Interestingly (?) my uncle Cpt Joe Hilsman was in April 1945 a Thompson carrying MD with 5th Rangers, when they 'liberated' Dachau. They were, according to him, so horrified that they rounded up all remaining SS in the camp and shot them. He mentioned to me his regret afterwards because he suspected the really bad actors had 'departed in Haste' as Pattons forces were closing in.

Joe Hilsman was one of the most prominent 'Gut man' at Piedmont Hospital in Atlanta and continued as a consultant until he was in his 90's.

The images below are around Gablingen post VE Day when my father was 355th CO and both he and his brother in law were about to come home.
Circa Sept 1945. 5th Ranger Btn was nearby.

I'm not exactly sure what the dress code of the day was in front of 5th Rangers, but it would have difficult to identify my father as a Group Commander or have a clue regarding who was suppsed to salute first.

The image with dad in cockpit has Joe about to climb in, then he next shot is on taxi way

 

[drgondog]

The killing zones set up by the Luftwaffe was a huge deterrent, but Tiffy and Jug drivers still tore the hell out of the 262s in the landing pattern.

I will have to dig up the actual data - but from memory and sourced from USAFHRC/Olynyk the 8th AF destroyed ~60% air to air of the total 110 credited at low level and the other 40% in high/middle altitude combat. The 9th, 15th and AF shared the remaining ~50 Me 262s of USAAF total VCs.

I have zero RAF data.

Of the ~110 8th AF VC's, about 80 went to P-51, 30 to P-47 with 56thFG high scorer by far.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Interestingly (?) my uncle Cpt Joe Hilsman was in April 1945 a Thompson carrying MD with 5th Rangers, when they 'liberated' Dachau. They were, according to him, so horrified that they rounded up all remaining SS in the camp and shot them. He mentioned to me his regret afterwards because he suspected the really bad actors had 'departed in Haste' as Pattons forces were closing in.

Joe Hilsman was one of the most prominent 'Gut man' at Piedmont Hospital in Atlanta and continued as a consultant until he was in his 90's.

The images below are around Gablingen post VE Day when my father was 355th CO and both he and his brother in law were about to come home.
Circa Sept 1945. th Ranger Btn was nearby.

I'm not exactly sure what the dress code of the day was in front of 5th Rangers, but it would have difficult to identify my father as a Group Commander or have a clue regarding who was suppsed to salute first.

View attachment 738217View attachment 738216View attachment 738218View attachment 738219

Wow, thanks for sharing.

Yeah, I can only imagine what these great men must have thought when they first laid eyes on these horrific places.

 

[Timppa]

There's a sucker born every minute- P.T. Barnum

 

[drgondog]

There's a sucker born every minute- P.T. Barnum

????

 

[GregP]

One of the pics, standing on tne wing, appears to show a split canopy on the 2-seat P-51.

I haven't seen that before, and maybe I'm mis-interpreting it?

 

[BarnOwlLover]

One P-51D was fitted with such as well as some radar/night fighting equipment to apparently train radar operators. Another was similarly converted for weather recon training. Photos of both aircraft are at IWM's website. There was also a P-51D or F-6D that the French Air Force converted into a trainer that had a split canopy that also was hinged so the rear could be lifted.

 

[GregP]

Haven't seen one before, and I've seen many P-51s. Interesting, and it certainly WOULD make access to the rear cockpit easier.

Admittedly, I'm getting older, but it isn't easy to get into or out of a standard 2-seat P-51's rear seat, particularly if it doesn't have the larger TF-51 canopy installed.

 

[BarnOwlLover]

Here's the hinged canopy:

www.frenchwings.net/combat/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=1349&fullsize=1

The other aircraft that I referred to just have a split canopy that each portion can slide back.

 

[drgondog]

One of the pics, standing on tne wing, appears to show a split canopy on the 2-seat P-51.

I haven't seen that before, and maybe I'm mis-interpreting it?

It was a P-51B-5 OS-Z that crash landed on runway Oct 1944. Reworked before Ev Stewart left 355th for the 4th FG in Feb 1945. I suspect he carried the concept to 4th FG for the 'night fighter' mod.

Dad was flying this one at Steeple Morden for the 'famous' color film stills and movies Cal Sloan made from backseat of all three squadrons plus a lone P-47

The first image of 354th has my father's WR-Bbar JANE VI recoded WRLbar, next to Jabara's WR-K obscured at far end. They had a MAC that both successfully survived - and the wreckage of 44-72253 JANE VI was bought by Pacific Fighters, restored (rebuilt) 80% and sold to Fagen to finish.The Crew Chief is Gerry Thompson who traveled to dad's Memorial Service

It will be pretty unique as a combat vet with 4-2 ground destroyed at Husum airfield, then dad upgraded to 44-72953

 

[GregP]

And the majority of those Me262 losses occurred during the landing or take-off cycle (the RAF's term was "Rat Catching").

Seeing some of these ancient threads come to life (even if for a moment) is kind of fun.

It IS kind of fun, isn't it?

It doesn't really matter where the Me262s were lost. The overall kill-to-loss ratio is still 5.4 : 1 for aerial victories (I don't know how many were lost due to engine issues in flight or on the ground or even losses during operational flights no involving combat), which is right in the good-to-mediocre range. Intellectually, the Me 262 had VERY hard-hitting armament, but was also very "unmaneuverable" when kept in the best combat speed range. So, it was great for hitting bombers, less great for combating piston fighters, and was a total wreck around the landing pattern if intercepted.

It adds up to about what a decent piston fighter achieved. There were never more than about 300 Me 262's that saw combat, and never more than about 40 - 60 at any one time, usually less, according to Adolph Galland, who should have known if ANYONE did. Me 262s weren't bad, but also weren't all that much of a factor in the war, though they WERE considerably more of a factor than the Ta 152 ever amounted to.

It had 7 -10 victories against 2 - 4 losses, depending on who you believe. But, it also went into general service (as much as 42 airplanes can anyway) right when (Apr 45) the Luftwaffe collapsed as a fighting force. So, the combat record may be a case of plain old bad timing. It happens. The performance suggests it should have been a very good unit. Even so, it's hard to shown up well in combat with 6 vs. 700 type numbers.

Edit:
After re-reading this, it comes across as a bit snippy, Graugeist.

That is NOT what was intended when I wrote it. What I meant to say was, "the Me 262 effectivity stands on its own, regardless of the phase a flight the losses were incurred in."

You could say the same for the Bachem Natter, which killed more Germans than Allies. The first and only manned vertical flight killed the pilot, Lothar Seiber. Manned glider flights began on 3 Nov 44. The pilot, Erich Klöckner, made all 4 towed flights. He bailed out after each flight and the test articles crashed. Hans Zubert made a free flight in 14 Feb and the Natter proved a capable flyer. So, it killed one German and no Allies in several flights. We KNOW the Natter flew OK. but the record doesn't exactly show that.

The Me 262 also flew well. But, the overall combat record is not exactly exemplary, even though it pointed the way to the future of fighter aircraft.

Cheers.

 

[DAB400]

Interestingly (?) my uncle Cpt Joe Hilsman was in April 1945 a Thompson carrying MD with 5th Rangers, when they 'liberated' Dachau. They were, according to him, so horrified that they rounded up all remaining SS in the camp and shot them. He mentioned to me his regret afterwards because he suspected the really bad actors had 'departed in Haste' as Pattons forces were closing in.

Joe Hilsman was one of the most prominent 'Gut man' at Piedmont Hospital in Atlanta and continued as a consultant until he was in his 90's.

The images below are around Gablingen post VE Day when my father was 355th CO and both he and his brother in law were about to come home.
Circa Sept 1945. 5th Ranger Btn was nearby.

I'm not exactly sure what the dress code of the day was in front of 5th Rangers, but it would have difficult to identify my father as a Group Commander or have a clue regarding who was suppsed to salute first.

The image with dad in cockpit has Joe about to climb in, then he next shot is on taxi way

View attachment 738217View attachment 738216View attachment 738218View attachment 738219

Great info, thank you. Your pics look like a 2-seat P51 that dad an uncle are in. I see other discussion about 2-seat mustangs on another post in this thread. I don't know about other nations' use of P51 and mod to 2-seater. I have read the USA made a TP/TF-51D that was a trainier. Do you know the background of the 2-seater in your pics?

My uncle also talked about the horror and anger they all felt dealing with the Nazi people whose homes and belongings they seized for war reparations. He had been a forward combat controller before he volunteered for flight training, so after his flight missions were done he spent most of his WWII time in and around Dachau doing property seizure and rounding up Nazi party members and generally doing mop-up on any pro-Nazi elements that needed to be arrested. He and other officers resided in homes that had been seized from local Nazis near the Dachau main camp. My family is mixed white, Cherokee, black. Uncle looked more Asian than anything. He said the Nazis were vocally hateful to him and the all-black unit he commanded, calling them all kinds of racist names that reflected more than racism but the strong belief in eugenics. The Nazis expressed that Uncle and his unit were, in uncle's words, "absolutely subhuman." I think the war reparations seizure officers were vested with full law enforcement and lethal force authority. Uncle never talked specifics, but the stories about these times always came with the million mile stare and sternness. I assume the use of lethal force was not uncommon for units like his during the seizure actions. He described several events where Nazis they encountered would kill themselves on sight, or already had before they got there.

He also described that there were makeshift prison compounds for the Nazis that the allies arrested during this time. It was common practice for Polish soldiers to be assigned the role of guard duty. Uncle said they did this because the Poles, having been the majority population in Dachau at the time of liberation, took this job very seriously. They never fell asleep and were immune from accepting bribes from the Nazi prisoners. The down side was that the Polish soldiers were very quick on the trigger when they saw a Nazi prisoner trying to escape. It was an shoot-first-ask-questions-later behavior. They lost many Nazi prisoners in this way, of which likely many shot were not actually trying to escape. Uncle explained that several times he and other allied officers had close calls when approaching the prison area, especially at night, when the Polish guards mistook them for Nazi prisoner escapees and nearly pulled the trigger before the officer ID'd himself. Officers all learned the Polish phrase for "Don't shoot, officer of the day." Uncle always delivered that story with a chuckle. I could tell that a lot of pain or sternness or something was masked by his delivery of that story. Usually that was the end of the narrative, and he would brightly bounce back to talking about flying the jug.

Uncle started off enlisted and did forward combat control, calling in airstrikes from a forward position in a foxhole or other cover with his radioman, behind enemy lines. As a state placing wrestler and his radio man as a cross country runner, they covered a lot of ground while calling in fire. He went from that to flying, and then back to the ground where they needed gritty officers like him to command gritty ground operations seizing property while not allowing it to turn into a slaughter. I myself served enlisted in the AF, chose not to stay in as a career. I loved hearing uncle's stories, and spent many nights as a kid, a teenager, and grown man sitting and listening to him. The phrase "don't call me 'Sir,' I work for a living" is part of enlisted culture. I reveled in it when I was enlisted and, now that I'm in a senior management position, I understand that this language is more a cultural training tool than reflective of reality. It conveys the need for all service members to be instilled with the will to fight. The P47 embodies that to me more than other aircraft. I am endeared to it because my uncle flew it and preferred it. But it was tough as hell, had high lethality, and protected the officer that flew it and allowed that officer to make the best use of his skills to kill the enemy. If the P47 was a person, it would have been enlisted.

I know so many people that post here have relatives like this. I'm glad for this sight where we can remember these men and the machines they used, We need their stories to keep us aware and strong. The skills they had will certainly be needed again by our children or other descendants.

So that gets us a long way from aircraft. I'll look to post in other places about aircraft in Korea, Vietnam, and the Gulf war.

 

[Timppa]

????

Sorry being an old cynical bastard, but
- Name of the "Uncle" is not revealed. In his place I would say it in every post in bold letters.
- No unit or rank is revealed.
-"Nazi people whose homes and belongings they seized for war reparations"
I think it did not work that way, unless you are talking about looting.