US Spitfires

[Jan Clausen]

I have heard that the Spitfires flown by the US Army in late '43 and early '44, particularly out of Corsica, Sicily, France, were old models and vastly inferior to the newer models given to the RAF. Is there any truth to this?

 

[tomo pauk]

I have heard that the Spitfires flown by the US Army in late '43 and early '44, particularly out of Corsica, Sicily, France, were old models and vastly inferior to the newer models given to the RAF. Is there any truth to this?

(my bold)
Who made the statement?

 

[Mike Williams]

I have heard that the Spitfires flown by the US Army in late '43 and early '44, particularly out of Corsica, Sicily, France, were old models and vastly inferior to the newer models given to the RAF. Is there any truth to this?

The 31st FG received their first Spitfire IXs on April 6, 1943 while in North Africa.

307th FS, 31st FG, North Africa

4th FS, 52nd FG Spitfire IX and pilot on alert at La Sebala, Tunisia. June 1943.

Combat reports show Spitfire IX in action as well such as Capt. John A. Carey of the 5th FS, 52nd Fighter Group claimed two Fw 190s destroyed 50 miles NE of Cap Bon, Tunisia while flying a Spitfire IX on 1 July 1943.

See also:
In a Now Forgotten Sky: The 31st Fighter Group in WW2. Dennis C. Kucera, Flying Machine Press, Stratford, Connecticut, 1997
History of the 31st Fighter Group, Rolland G. Lamensdorf, 1952
Spitfires and Yellow Tail Mustangs. The 52nd Fighter Group of World War II. Tom Ivie and Paul Ludwig, Hikori Publications, East Sussex, England, 2005
American Spitfire: Camouflage and Markings, Paul Ludwig and Malcolm Laird, Ventura Publications, Wellington, New Zealand, 1998

 

[pbehn]

This is good read. Uncle Sam's Spitfires — Articles | 1942 | 1943 | 1944 | history | Spitfire Mk. V | Spitfire Mk. VIII

 

[EwenS]

The 31st and 52nd FGs collected newly assembled Spitfire Vc at Gibraltar which they took to North Africa in Nov 1942. Just like the RAF squadrons in that theatre. The first Spitfire IX in NA turned up around March 1943, with MK.VIII a few months later. Most Spitfire units, RAF and USAAF operated a mix of Mk.V and Mk.VIII or IX during the second half of the year. Both US FG re-equipped with P-51B/C in Spring 1944.

 

[pbehn]

The British having a special factory making Mk I Spitfires until 1944, just for the service of USA pilots, is one of the better conspiracy theories I have come across.

 

[Mike Williams]

I would be remiss not to mention the Spitfire VIII in US service and this image of a 308th​ Fighter Squadron, 31st​ Fighter Group Spitfire VIII is too nice not to share.

 

[pbehn]

I would be remiss not to mention the Spitfire VIII in US service and this image of a 308th​ Fighter Squadron, 31st​ Fighter Group Spitfire VIII is too nice not to share.

View attachment 657393

Maybe the origin of what the OP heard was that while the Brits were getting Mk IXs the US airmen were getting Mk VIIIs? Not realising the Mk VIII was a more advanced A/C than a Mk IX.

 

[33k in the air]

Maybe the origin of what the OP heard was that while the Brits were getting Mk IXs the US airmen were getting Mk VIIIs? Not realising the Mk VIII was a more advanced A/C than a Mk IX.

To be fair, the British mark naming scheme is often confusing.

 

[Mike Williams]

Maybe the origin of what the OP heard was that while the Brits were getting Mk IXs the US airmen were getting Mk VIIIs? Not realising the Mk VIII was a more advanced A/C than a Mk IX.

Sorry, I can't speak to that, but I can say that while the 31st and 52nd FGs got Spitfire IXs in April 1943, some RAF squadrons in the MTO did get Spitfire IXs a bit earlier such as 81 Squadron in January 1943, 72 Squadron in February 1943, 92 and 145 Squadrons in March 1943 and 126 at Malta too in March '43. I never heard any complaining about it, just heard that the pilots were pleased to get the nines.

It looks like both the 31st and 52nd got Spitfire VIII's starting around August 1943 which is in keeping with other RAF squadrons such as for example 417 Squadron.

Lt. William Skinner's Spitfire VIII and crew at Castel Volturno, Italy, April 1944 (W Skinner).

 

[EwenS]

Spitfire Mk.VIII started rolling off the Supermarine production lines in Nov 1942 and were initially allocated to the Mediterranean theatre. 601 squadron was the first to receive some in June 1943 followed by 92 and 417 in July, 145 and 1 SAAF in Aug and 32 in Dec. But these were generally being operated alongside older Mk.V throughout most of 1943 in most squadrons, and also alongside the Mk.IX at times in those same squadrons.

The only other RAF unit to receive the Mk.VIII in 1943 was 81 squadron in Nov. It had been withdrawn from service in Italy and re-equipped with Mk.VIII before being redeployed to India where it arrived the following month having flown its new aircraft from Egypt.

It is worth while remembering that the last Spitfire Mk.V didn't leave the production line at CBAF until 31 July 1943 and it continued to be flown on the front line in the Med until the end of the war. At low levels it performed just as well as the Mk.VIII/IX.

Production Mk.IX started flowing from the CBAF production line in June 1942 (conversions from Mk.V airframes had flown before that). Priority was initially to U.K. based squadrons. The Mk.IX was supposed to be an interim model pending full production of the Mk.VIII. Ultimately the Mk.IX outlasted the Mk.VIII on the production line, going on to be the mark with the second highest production total.

So, although the 2 USAAF fighter groups were operating a mix of Spitfire Mk.V/VIII/IX through most of 1943, I can't see any evidence that they were being disadvantaged in any way compared with their RAF counterparts in the Mediterranean theatre in terms of the equipment that they were provided with.

 

[Mike Williams]

Spitfire Mk.VIII started rolling off the Supermarine production lines in Nov 1942 and were initially allocated to the Mediterranean theatre. 601 squadron was the first to receive some in June 1943 followed by 92 and 417 in July, 145 and 1 SAAF in Aug and 32 in Dec. But these were generally being operated alongside older Mk.V throughout most of 1943 in most squadrons, and also alongside the Mk.IX at times in those same squadrons.

The only other RAF unit to receive the Mk.VIII in 1943 was 81 squadron in Nov. It had been withdrawn from service in Italy and re-equipped with Mk.VIII before being redeployed to India where it arrived the following month having flown its new aircraft from Egypt.

126 Squadron operational with Spitfire VIII in June 1943 and 43 Squadron can be added to the list of Spitfire VIII users in the MTO during 1943.

 

[EwenS]

126 Squadron operational with Spitfire VIII in June 1943 and 43 Squadron can be added to the list of Spitfire VIII users in the MTO during 1943.

Interesting, because Halley's Squadrons of the Royal & Commonwealth Air Forces 1918-1988 doesn't list 126 as a Mk.VIII user at all just Vc and IX from Aug 1943 until it was withdrawn for return to the U.K. on 1 April 1944. Note that max no of Mk.VIII on any mission is 2. Must be similar sheets for other Marks.

And Halley only has 43 with Mk.VIII between Aug-Nov 1944. Again it is recorded as a mix Mk.V & IX from Aug 1943 to Jan 1944 when conversion to the Middle.IX was completed. The aircraft history doesn't even list it as being with 43 at this time. Just says Middle East. Possibly didn't last long enough to get on anyone's books.

Spitfire pilots and aircraft database -

Just reinforces what a mix of models these Spitfire units were using in late 1943.

 

[R Leonard]

Don't forget the USN cruiser scouting squadron VCS-7 operating the Spitfire Mk Vb out on RNAS Lee-on-Solent during the Normandy invasion.

Official USN photo from Yes, The U.S. Navy Also Took The Spitfire Into Battle In World War II which also mentions their training with the USAAF 67th TRG.

 

[EwenS]

And again that unit was operating the same generation of Spitfires as its RAF / FAA sister units in the D-Day Air Spotting Pool (Spitfire V and Seafire derivatives therefrom). More info here

D-Day naval artillery spotting

I've been told that there was a combined RN/RAF(?)/USN squadron employed spotting fire from naval ships on D-Day (and after?). Any details on aircraft, camo' and markings please?

www.britmodeller.com

 

[Mike Williams]

Interesting, because Halley's Squadrons of the Royal & Commonwealth Air Forces 1918-1988 doesn't list 126 as a Mk.VIII user at all just Vc and IX from Aug 1943 until it was withdrawn for return to the U.K. on 1 April 1944.

Fwiw, I show 126 with Spitfire IX's in March of '43 at Malta. I don't have Halley's book. Sounds interesting, I'll check it out. I've been using Rawlings' Fighter Squadrons of the R.A.F. and Their Aircraft, Crecy Books, 1993 and Morgan and Shacklady's, Spitfire the History as a starting point for such things over the years. They are good but not perfect. After that archival stuff followed by all manner of books. Nice link!

 

[EwenS]

Fwiw, I show 126 with Spitfire IX's in March of '43 at Malta. I don't have Halley's book. Sounds interesting, I'll check it out. I've been using Rawlings' Fighter Squadrons of the R.A.F. and Their Aircraft, Crecy Books, 1993 and Morgan and Shacklady's, Spitfire the History as a starting point for such things over the years. They are good but not perfect. After that archival stuff followed by all manner of books. Nice link!

The link I gave seems to draw mostly on Morgan and Shacklady. But it is searchable which is of huge benefit to research. Halley was published in 1989 by Air Britain and is long out of print.

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

RAF Squadrons by Jefford also says 43 squadron had Spitfire VIII August to November 1944, and no mention of any in 126 squadron. Andrew Pentland's Spitfire site has the Spitfire histories available for download.

At Air Force Command level, the USAAF says it received its first Spitfire V in June 1942, first VIII in August 1943, first IX in July 1943 and first XI in October 1943, with 22 VIII and 68 IX delivered by end November. As of early 1944 the agreement was attrition replacements for two US Fighter Groups until they re-equipped with US types, the US operated Spitfires to then be returned to the RAF. So a mixture of V, VIII and IX were being delivered in March 1944.

Supermarine finished mark V production in September 1942, Castle Bromwich in August 1943, Westland in October 1943. F.VIII production began in November 1942, LF.VIII in May 1943. Supermarine produced mostly F.IX June 1942 to June 1943, plus some LF.IX, Castle Bromwich began mark IX production in February 1943. To end June 1943, production was 254 VIII and 922 IX.

End February 1943 the RAF census says 87 IX were en route overseas (79 Gibraltar, 6 CIB, 2 Alexandria), while 3 were in the Middle East, out of 407 effectives, another 113 had been lost in Britain and 1 overseas. The 42 VIII were in Britain, no losses.
End March 1943, 49 IX in the Middle East, 53 in NW Africa, 84 en route overseas (164 Spitfires in NW Africa had been allocated to the USAAF, marks and casualties unknown), 7 Mark IX lost overseas. 3 Mark VII (not VIII) en route overseas.
End April 1943, 3 IX in Middle East (so some form of correction) 45 in NW Africa, 19 IX lost overseas. 23 VIII and 161 IX en route overseas.
End May 1943, 3 IX in Middle East 77 in NW Africa, 21 IX lost overseas. 77 VIII and 140 IX en route overseas.
End June 1943, 17 IX in Middle East 96 in NW Africa, 2 VIII and 29 IX lost overseas. 123 VIII and 210 IX en route overseas. How 2 were lost overseas but not in transit is not explained.
First VIII on strength overseas is given as 5 in Middle East end July 1943, along with 71 IX while 76 IX were in NW Africa, 47 IX lost overseas. 228 VIII and 310 IX en route overseas
End August 1943, 59 VIII and 217 IX with Mediterranean Air Command, 3 VIII and 52 IX lost overseas, 277 VIII and 298 IX en route overseas.

Ministry of Aircraft Production, exports of Spitfire VII, VIII and IX
5 weeks ending 2 October 1942, none (But 25 exports mark number not specified)
4 weeks ending 30 October 1942, none (But 14 exports mark number not specified)
5 weeks ending 4 December 1942, none
4 weeks ending 1 January 1943, 1 IX
4 weeks ending 29 January 1943, 2 VII (Not VIII), 38 IX
4 weeks ending 26 February 1943, 55 IX
5 weeks ending 2 April 1943, no report (120 Spitfire to Middle East, 104 to North Africa, 25 to Australia, 1 to Canada, no mark information, from AIR 19/524)
4 weeks ending 30 April 1943, 1 VII, 8 VIII, 44 IX
5 weeks ending 2 July 1943, 46 VIII, 87 IX
4 weeks ending 30 July 1943, 108 VIII, 154 IX
5 weeks ending 2 September 1943, 70 VIII, 42 IX, (5 exports have no mark number specified)

 

[Mike Williams]

Perhaps of interest regarding 126 Squadron at Malta and Spitfire IXs is this information from Cull's Spitfires Over Sicily, Grub Street, London, 2000: "During the course of an otherwise uneventful sweep over the Gela-Comiso area next morning (14 February) by 126 Squadron - which had just taken delivery of the first three Spitfire IXs (EN146, EN200 and EN287) to reach the island"...

Spitfire IXs EN290 and EN295 also show up in 126's Operations Record Book for February 1943 along with the previous three.

 

[BiffF15]

The 31st FG received their first Spitfire IXs on April 6, 1943 while in North Africa.

View attachment 657271
307th FS, 31st FG, North Africa


View attachment 657268
4th FS, 52nd FG Spitfire IX and pilot on alert at La Sebala, Tunisia. June 1943.

View attachment 657270

View attachment 657272

Combat reports show Spitfire IX in action as well such as Capt. John A. Carey of the 5th FS, 52nd Fighter Group claimed two Fw 190s destroyed 50 miles NE of Cap Bon, Tunisia while flying a Spitfire IX on 1 July 1943.

See also:
In a Now Forgotten Sky: The 31st Fighter Group in WW2. Dennis C. Kucera, Flying Machine Press, Stratford, Connecticut, 1997
History of the 31st Fighter Group, Rolland G. Lamensdorf, 1952
Spitfires and Yellow Tail Mustangs. The 52nd Fighter Group of World War II. Tom Ivie and Paul Ludwig, Hikori Publications, East Sussex, England, 2005
American Spitfire: Camouflage and Markings, Paul Ludwig and Malcolm Laird, Ventura Publications, Wellington, New Zealand, 1998

Small world. I flew Eagles with Col John Carey's (Retired) oldest son. I met him at his son's wedding, and mistakenly called him Mr. Carey. He looked at me, and with a solemn but stern fatherly voice said, "You can call me Colonel ". To which I replied "yes sir"!