Westland Whirlwind vs Fw-187 vs P-38

[Glider]

I prefer the loss figures as documented in the Bomber Command War Diaries which goes into extensive analysis. Daily repots and summaries by Squadron, Group and its the result of the study of all the official forms 540 and 541 which each aircraft complted before every mission.

It totals 8,953 bombers lost to all causes during the war.

Kurfurst, can you support the 10,000 figure, to blame it on "fake" British radio reports to the British public about losses is a strong accusation.

 

[NZTyphoon]

The Whirlwind is a nice looking aircraft. That Gloster F.9/37 is ugly as sin.

I don't know if those photos do it justice. Had Gloster continued with the design it may well have been a better bet than the Whirlwind: it was bigger, probably more adaptable and potentially a good long range fighter

The bugbears were the Bristol Taurus engines and the small fuel load.

 

[Kurfürst]

Glider I ám Gajdos surprised you are unaware of this, it is pretty well known in literature and post war official histories. I suggest u do ur own research for these so-called Daventry figures, named after the BBC station Thatcher broadcasted them. Price would be a good start.

 

[Colin1]

Glider I ám Gajdos surprised

You are what?

 

[Milosh]

From the BC War Diaries for the time period of the BoB

July
Night (sorties - missing - percentage - crashed - percentage overall)
3243 - 91- 2.8% - 28 - 3.7%

Day
582 - 55 - 9.5% - 3 - 11.8%

Aug
Night
3354 - 121 - 3.6% - 45 - 5.0%

Day
468 - 35 - 7.5% - 5 - 8.5%

Sept
Night
2621 - 76 - 2.9% - 61 - 5.3%

Day
263 - 14 - 5.3% - 1 - 5.7%

Oct
Night
2501 - 68 - 2.7% - 40 - 4.3%

Day
138 - 17 - 12.3% - 1 - 13.0%

for other dates, BC Operational Stats

 

[Kurfürst]

You are what?

Focking iPhone LOL

 

[Glider]

Glider I ám Gajdos surprised you are unaware of this, it is pretty well known in literature and post war official histories. I suggest u do ur own research for these so-called Daventry figures, named after the BBC station Thatcher broadcasted them. Price would be a good start.

I have my research, its the Bomber Command War Diaries by Martin Middlebrook and Chris Everitt, not this Daventry. You have not put anything to support your statement about 10,000.

The question is very simple, where did you get your figure of 10,000? If there is nothing to support it then it has no meaning or value.
If its pretty well known in Literature and post war official histories then all I am asking is that you let us know which official histories or Literature.

 

[tail end charlie]

I don't think so.

RAF Bomber Command flew their first mission against Germany one day after Britain declared war. The final mission against Germany was flown 4 May 1945. For almost 6 years there were bombing raids every month. In fact the so called "Battle of Britain" was not a one sided affair. Britain was bombing Germany at the same time Germany was bombing Britain. RAF Bomber Command lost more aircrew during the BoB then RAF Fighter Command.

Given the massive and continuous British effort to operate heavy bombers I think it quite reasonable to spend a bit on a long range escort fighter.

The british like the Germans switched quickly from day to night bombing then developed night time escort fighters to protect them. The Americans tried daylight bombing but found they needed an escort fighter and stopped their mission until new bombers and fighter were available. Stopping fighting for a while wasnt an option for the british or germans.

 

[davebender]

A nice site that I have added to my Favorites Menu for reference purposes. Thanks.

I think data on that site supports my point. RAF Bomber Command needed a long range escort fighter right from the start of the war. Why didn't they have one? Fighter aircraft, even a twin engine model like the Whirlwind or Fw-187, cost a lot less then a bomber. The Whirlwind could have filled that role if it had been designed with substantial internal fuel capacity as the Fw-187 was.

 

[davebender]

I disagree.

The Luftwaffe was designed with tactical air support in mind. Most bombing missions were flown during the daytime for the entire duration of the war. The short BoB period was an anomaly.

 

[DonL]

The british like the Germans switched quickly from day to night bombing then developed night time escort fighters to protect them. The Americans tried daylight bombing but found they needed an escort fighter and stopped their mission until new bombers and fighter were available. Stopping fighting for a while wasnt an option for the british or germans.

Yes I agree, but the daylight bombing raids of the USAAF were the knockout for the german armaments industry.
You can't be this accurate with night bombing raids. T
For reality the RAF didn't need a longrange escort fighter because of the help from USAAF from 1942.
So they took the resources for a longrange escort fighter to other projects.
The RAF on it's own could use a long range escort fighter for day bombing.

For the german LW a long range escort fighter would make sense in offensive and defensive missions.
To my my opinion at the defending of the Reich from 1942/43 till end of war, it would be elemental to have the opportunity to built a focal point, through a concentration of fighters, to attack at one point with the chance of air supermarcy at this moment This was impossible with the Bf 109 because she was to short legged besides other problems.

I think a tandem between the FW 187 for attacking USAAF escort fighters and the FW 190 to attack bombers would be much more effective in the years 1943/44 than the tandem Bf 109 and FW 190.

If we look at the tandem Ta 152 H1 and Me 262 it is apparent.
The Ta 152 H1 had an internal fuel capacity of 1040l and a range of someting about 1500km only with inline fuel. So I think the LW was aware later in the war of this opportunity to built concentations at a certain point.

 

[drgondog]

The british like the Germans switched quickly from day to night bombing then developed night time escort fighters to protect them. The Americans tried daylight bombing but found they needed an escort fighter and stopped their mission until new bombers and fighter were available. Stopping fighting for a while wasnt an option for the british or germans.

What do you mean when you say the Americans 'stopped their mission' until new bombers and fighters were available???

There was no such 'stoppage' although the 8th AF did not fly deep penetrations as far as Munich or Leipzig for a period of time after October 14, 1943 to February 1944. That had the effect of 'licking their wounds' after the 60ships shot down on the October 14 Black Thursday trip to Schweinfurt.

The effect of reducing the long range targeting was to reduce 8th AF losses until the Mustangs and Lightnings became operational during the next four months. Big Week in late February 1944 was the opening of the complete Germany, Czechoslovakia, Poland target portfolio for the rest of the war.

The 8th AF BC did not get 'new bombers' but did replace lost inventories of B-24s and B-17s.

The 12th and 15th AF did not restrict themselves from any targets in Germany, Rumania and Austria at any time.

 

[Shortround6]

The problem with the Peregrine was that its design was half a generation behind that of the Merlin; essentially it was a developed Kestral. Physically there wasn't much difference in size between the Peregine and Merlin although the capacity of the engine was only 21 Litres. Overall the Merlin was a more efficient engine. I guess the question the AM and R-R needed to ask was was it worth developing a less efficient, older engine, which was used operationally on one aircraft type, alongside of a more efficient design which was used on lots of operational aircraft?

The Peregrine was never a really practical engine past 1941-42, it just didn't have the capacity, but then neither was the Bristol Taurus, same reason, just too small to bother with.

I would be interested in finding out just how much of the Kestral was carried over to the Peregrine aside from the bore and stroke. It did manage to gain around 140-175lbs over the Kestral and is supposed to have used some Merlin features. I am not sure how much feed back there was from the Vulture program although that engine did use wider spacing between cylinders. (supposedly so a later version could use Merlin pistons?) At any rate the Vulture MK V was rated at 1840HP at 3000rpm/9lb boost at 20,250 ft so half of that would be 920hp. the extra 35hp isn't much but the extra 5,000ft of altitude would be useful.

Again just dreaming

There were two extra fuel tanks mooted for the Whirlwind II; one of 27 gallons in the forward fuselage, and one of 33 gal in the rear fuselage which made a total capacity of 194 gal. A couple of 44 gallon drop tanks would have increased fuel capacity to 282 gallons (290 Fw 187).

The two fuselage fuel tanks would help prevent balance/trim problems. Is the FW 187 capacity in US gallons or Imperial gallons?

Another twin Peregrine/Bristol Taurus fighter which flew was the
Wingspan: 50ft
Length: 37ft
Wing Area: 386 Sq Ft
Weight Maximum Loaded: 11,615 lb
Fuel: 170 gallons
Max Speed: 330 mph (Peregrines) 361 Mph (Taurus)
Armament: 4 x .303 + 2x 20mm Hispano with an alternative 4 x 20 mm Hispano
Apparently this aircraft was extremely manouevrable and much easier to fly than the Whirlwind.

I didn't think the Whirlwind was that hard to fly. While it was 'hot' for a 1940 airplane it seems to have been well liked by the pilots that flew it and compared to other fighters coming on line in 1942-43 (Hawker Typhoons and P-47s) it take -off and landing runs don't seem to be that far out of line.

The Gloster with it's bigger wing and lower wing loading should be more maneuverable and with the second seat more adaptable as a night fighter. It would need more fuel (were second seat is?) for use as an escort fighter just as the Whirlwind would. It also needs improved engines in order to be successful. Even improved Pergrines might not be enough and while the speed figures with the Taurus look good it seems there was trouble with this engine model and when the plane was re-powered with an Taurus engine closer to production standard the speed fell to 331mph at 15,000ft. Most other Taurus engines were set up for low altitude work with peak HP coming in at 3,500-4,000ft. Given the 1000lb weight difference between the Gloster and Whirlwind this plane might be better candidate for Merlins (assuming you can find them).

 

[drgondog]

Yes I agree, but the daylight bombing raids of the USAAF were the knockout for the german armaments industry.
You can't be this accurate with night bombing raids. T
For reality the RAF didn't need a longrange escort fighter because of the help from USAAF from 1942.
So they took the resources for a longrange escort fighter to other projects.
The RAF on it's own could use a long range escort fighter for day bombing.

For the german LW a long range escort fighter would make sense in offensive and defensive missions.
To my my opinion at the defending of the Reich from 1942/43 till end of war, it would be elemental to have the opportunity to built a focal point, through a concentration of fighters, to attack at one point with the chance of air supermarcy at this moment This was impossible with the Bf 109 because she was to short legged besides other problems.

I think a tandem between the FW 187 for attacking USAAF escort fighters and the FW 190 to attack bombers would be much more effective in the years 1943/44 than the tandem Bf 109 and FW 190.

If we look at the tandem Ta 152 H1 and Me 262 it is apparent.
The Ta 152 H1 had an internal fuel capacity of 1040l and a range of someting about 1500km only with inline fuel. So I think the LW was aware later in the war of this opportunity to built concentations at a certain point.

I agree most of your comments but confused a little by reference to Germany's lack of focus on applying a concentration of fighters at concentrated points of attack. Perhaps I misunderstood your point but the LW developed very solid tactics to concentrate their fighters on the bombers.

In early 1943 when the 8th AF was only in the first six months of operations the LW defended essentially with JG26 and JG in the occupied countries and western Germany. They did not have to worry much about escorting fighters as only the Spit was available.

In mid 1943 the Thunderbolt was in operations with three Fighter groups and the effective tactic was was to wait for escorts to turn back and concentrate on the bombers in larger formations utilizing company front tactics to dilute bomber return fire. It was this period through January 1944 when the LW could still deploy twin engine Me 110 and 210's and Ju 88's along with Me 109s and Fw 190s to attack with little fear of escorts - but by January 1944 three groups of P-38s and one of Mustangs were beginning to take their toll on the day fighters.

Still the LW became more proficient at stalking bomber formations and providing insight to poor formations, bomb groups out of place, and bomb groups without escort. These tactics would continue through January 1945 when all hope of putting up large concentrations was squandered with Bodenplatte.

I decidedly agree that Germany should have made three changes in early 1943 when it became apparent that the US would put large forces over Germany by daylight. These are the ones that come to mind

1.) immediately put more day fighters in the west with instructions to attack both escorting fighters and bombers, 2.) concentrate more Gruppe's in the center of gravity of German defenses to enable more concentrations on any particular bomber course, 3.) accelerate the development of the Fw 190D by re-prioritizing the DB/Jumo engines to get both better high altitude performance and more range. I'm not sure the Me 262 development could have proceeded faster.

 

[davebender]

A couple of 44 gallon drop tanks would have increased fuel capacity to 282 gallons (290 Fw 187).

Any aircraft can carry drop tanks and practically all fighter aircraft did for long range missions including the P-38. That isn't the same as having an internal fuel capacity of 290 gallons. Add a couple of Luftwaffe standard 300 liter drop tanks and Fw-187 total fuel capacity is over 500 gallons. Drop tanks get you to the target. Internal fuel is for aerial combat and (hopefully) returning home.

 

[Shortround6]

Any aircraft can carry drop tanks and practically all fighter aircraft did for long range missions including the P-38. That isn't the same as having an internal fuel capacity of 290 gallons. Add a couple of Luftwaffe standard 300 liter drop tanks and Fw-187 total fuel capacity is over 500 gallons .

Quite a trick. Add two 300 liter (79.25 US gallons/66imp gal) drop tanks to a 290 US gallon internal fuel capacity and get a total of over 500 US gallons?

A Whirlwind fitted with the proposed fuselage tanks would have fuel capacity of 194 Imp gal/ 233US gal/882 liters. Given the smaller (lower powered) engines that presumable are less thirsty (even in a MK II version) that should give a range that is close enough to the 1100 liter/290 US gallon/242 Imp gal FW 187 once it is fitted with DB 601 engines.

Remember that later P-38s (the ones that did the long range escort duties in the winter of 43-44) carried 410 US gallons for their nominal 1425 Hp engines.
To get the range and armament package of the P-38 with the P-38s performance you are going to need a plane about the size, weight and power of the P-38. The P-38s gun armament with ammo was over 1300lbs. While the 20mm might run dry after 15 seconds of firing time the .50cal guns were good for 33-34 seconds of firing time. Perhaps this was too much but it sure beats the 6-8 seconds of firing time for the Whirlwind and FW 187 20mm cannon as built. Something to consider for "escort" fighters.

 

[tail end charlie]

What do you mean when you say the Americans 'stopped their mission' until new bombers and fighters were available???

There was no such 'stoppage' although the 8th AF did not fly deep penetrations as far as Munich or Leipzig for a period of time after October 14, 1943 to February 1944. That had the effect of 'licking their wounds' after the 60ships shot down on the October 14 Black Thursday trip to Schweinfurt.

The effect of reducing the long range targeting was to reduce 8th AF losses until the Mustangs and Lightnings became operational during the next four months. Big Week in late February 1944 was the opening of the complete Germany, Czechoslovakia, Poland target portfolio for the rest of the war.

The 8th AF BC did not get 'new bombers' but did replace lost inventories of B-24s and B-17s.

The 12th and 15th AF did not restrict themselves from any targets in Germany, Rumania and Austria at any time.

I meant they stopped "deep penetrations as far as Munich or Leipzig for a period of time after October 14, 1943 to February 1944. That had the effect of 'licking their wounds' after the 60ships shot down on the October 14 Black Thursday trip to Schweinfurt." until "the Mustangs and Lightnings became operational during the next four months." The USAAF also implemented new tactics and increased armament on the bombers during the lull in activity

By February 1944 Germany was heading for collapse as can be seen by the assassination attempts on Hitler it will always be conjecture as to who played the biggest part in that collapse.

 

[DonL]

Remember that later P-38s (the ones that did the long range escort duties in the winter of 43-44) carried 410 US gallons for their nominal 1425 Hp engines.
To get the range and armament package of the P-38 with the P-38s performance you are going to need a plane about the size, weight and power of the P-38. The P-38s gun armament with ammo was over 1300lbs. While the 20mm might run dry after 15 seconds of firing time the .50cal guns were good for 33-34 seconds of firing time. Perhaps this was too much but it sure beats the 6-8 seconds of firing time for the Whirlwind and FW 187 20mm cannon as built. Something to consider for "escort" fighters.

That statement is wrong.

To get the range and armament package of the P-38 with the P-38s performance you are going to need a plane about the size, weight and power of the P-38.

The Fw 187 could carry 8200kg as take off weight. That was was the maximal take off weight for a 2 seater Nightfighter with the same measurements as the single seater escort fighter.
The Fw 187 had one 880 Ltr tank in the fuselage and in each wing one 210 Ltr.tank.
That's for the inline fuel plus 900 Ltr. in one or two external tanks. That's 2200Ltr.
If I have done the maths correct this are 581 US gallons. And I think the FW 187 had enough space to carry ammo.
And the external tanks could get larger because the FW 187 single seater escort fighter had plenty of reserves for weight loading

 

[Shortround6]

That statement is wrong.

Could you please explain why?

The Fw 187 could carry 8200kg as take off weight. That was was the maximal take off weight for a 2 seater Nightfighter with the same measurements as the single seater escort fighter.
The Fw 187 had one 880 Ltr tank in the fuselage and in each wing one 210 Ltr.tank.
That's for the inline fuel plus 900 Ltr. in one or two external tanks. That's 2200Ltr.
If I have done the maths correct this are 581 US gallons. And I think the FW 187 had enough space to carry ammo.
And the external tanks could get larger because the FW 187 single seater escort fighter had plenty of reserves for weight loading

Just what airplane are you talking about?
Most sources give a max gross weight of 4900-5000kg for the FW 187. You are giving a weight 400kg higher than for a Bf 110 G. Granted a developed FW 187 with DB 600 series engines could and would weigh more than the Jumo 210 powered prototypes but a 64% increase seems to be pushing things. of course that weight does push it right into the middle of P-38 weight range. FW 187 and the P-38 have almost identical wing area
I am also trying to figure out just what FW 187 night fighter you are talking about since none of the planes that were built ever carried radar.
You seem to talking about paper airplanes that never had a metal cut for them.
A 1942-43 FW 187 using MG 151 guns would not have the firing time restrictions that the AS BUILT Jumo powered versions did with their DRUM fed cannon. With the MG FF guns you have two choices. Either fly as a single seat airplane and be limited to the 60 round drum (about 8 seconds firing time) or carry a second crewman to change drums like the Bf 110 did. Bf 110 carried two spare drums per gun for the 180 rpg.

 

[NZTyphoon]

The Peregrine was never a really practical engine past 1941-42, it just didn't have the capacity, but then neither was the Bristol Taurus, same reason, just too small to bother with.

I would be interested in finding out just how much of the Kestral was carried over to the Peregrine aside from the bore and stroke. It did manage to gain around 140-175lbs over the Kestral and is supposed to have used some Merlin features. I am not sure how much feed back there was from the Vulture program although that engine did use wider spacing between cylinders. (supposedly so a later version could use Merlin pistons?) At any rate the Vulture MK V was rated at 1840HP at 3000rpm/9lb boost at 20,250 ft so half of that would be 920hp. the extra 35hp isn't much but the extra 5,000ft of altitude would be useful.

Again just dreaming


I didn't think the Whirlwind was that hard to fly. While it was 'hot' for a 1940 airplane it seems to have been well liked by the pilots that flew it and compared to other fighters coming on line in 1942-43 (Hawker Typhoons and P-47s) it take -off and landing runs don't seem to be that far out of line.

The Gloster with it's bigger wing and lower wing loading should be more maneuverable and with the second seat more adaptable as a night fighter. It would need more fuel (were second seat is?) for use as an escort fighter just as the Whirlwind would. It also needs improved engines in order to be successful. Even improved Pergrines might not be enough and while the speed figures with the Taurus look good it seems there was trouble with this engine model and when the plane was re-powered with an Taurus engine closer to production standard the speed fell to 331mph at 15,000ft. Most other Taurus engines were set up for low altitude work with peak HP coming in at 3,500-4,000ft. Given the 1000lb weight difference between the Gloster and Whirlwind this plane might be better candidate for Merlins (assuming you can find them).

According to Bingham, p 42 in January 1941 the managing director of Westland wrote to the C in C of Fighter Command, Sholto Douglas that "We are now able...to offer to install in the Whirlwind twin Merlin 20 engines, thus overcoming the difficulty of continuing to supply Peregrine engines. This would give the aeroplane...a top speed of 410 mph, a service ceiling of 37,000 ft and a range of 800 miles." Why this wasn't taken up... Apparently there was some official prejudice against Westland who, admittedly, were slow building the Whirlwind.

You're right about the Whirlwind being easy to fly and highly regarded by its pilots*: there was a myth being pushed at the time, by some RAF types who should have known better, that the Whirlwind needed long airstrips because of a high landing speed; in practice it was easily able to use small fighter strips. It was also found that it was far easier to use as a nightfighter than any of the single-engine fighters.

With some more development either the Whirlwind or the Gloster - or both - could have been good escort fighters. The Taurus engines on the Gloster could have been replaced by Pratt Whitney R-1830s, which were similar in size and lighter, but more powerful and reliable than the Taurus (which is how Bristol made the Beaufort Mk II and the Australians the Mks V to VIII). BTW the F.9/37 was a single seater and was very similar to the Fw 187 in size and weight.

*I was thinking about the Beaufighter for some reason