Chocks away!
Senior Airman
Don't forget that the Heinkel He-100 had a top speed of about 670 kph in it's original late 30s early 40s form! You can imagine how amazing it's performance would be had it been developed further...
Alternative German Fighters: Me-209, Me-309, He-100, etc.
- Thread starter CharlesBronson
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Yes but that aircraft was a stripped down version. It did not carry armament or armour protection. Adding the equipment neccessary to be a combat ready warbird would have reduced its performance somewhat.
Having said that I think it should have been developed further though.
Having said that I think it should have been developed further though.
Civettone
Tech Sergeant
Parmigiano, I also read that the C.206 was the one with the DB 603 because the other 6's (G.56 and Re.2006) had the DB 603. Then the C.207 would be the same but with the 4 wing cannons (which doesn't make sense to me if you can get one firing through the motor block?).
But I've also read what you say so ... that's at least as plausible. But what would the new airframe of the C.206/207 have been like?
From memory, the He 100D (armed and without surface vaporation) the top speed was around 644 km/h. I think the He 100D would have been a better fighter than my beloved Bf 109 because it focused on the strengths of the Bf 109 - speed, agility, power/weight, easy-to-build - but was better at it than the Bf 109. The Bf 109 was probably more manoeuvrable (turn rate) but as turn battles were not the preferred fighting style of the Bf 109, the He 100 would have been better, also with the later fights against the American high-speed fighters in mind. With a DB 605 the He 100 would probably have been faster than the P-51 which also had laminar wings.
But that's just my view - there are insufficient flight data of the He 100 to be sure of its qualities and vices.
In any case, I can completely understand that the Luftwaffe continued their production with the Bf 109 which remained competitive till the very end.
Kris
But I've also read what you say so ... that's at least as plausible. But what would the new airframe of the C.206/207 have been like?
From memory, the He 100D (armed and without surface vaporation) the top speed was around 644 km/h. I think the He 100D would have been a better fighter than my beloved Bf 109 because it focused on the strengths of the Bf 109 - speed, agility, power/weight, easy-to-build - but was better at it than the Bf 109. The Bf 109 was probably more manoeuvrable (turn rate) but as turn battles were not the preferred fighting style of the Bf 109, the He 100 would have been better, also with the later fights against the American high-speed fighters in mind. With a DB 605 the He 100 would probably have been faster than the P-51 which also had laminar wings.
But that's just my view - there are insufficient flight data of the He 100 to be sure of its qualities and vices.
In any case, I can completely understand that the Luftwaffe continued their production with the Bf 109 which remained competitive till the very end.
Kris
Parmigiano
Senior Airman
"But what would the new airframe of the C.206/207 have been like?"
I have a couple of drawings, I'll see if I can scan the magazine tomorrow. Quality is not very high, unfortunately.
I have a couple of drawings, I'll see if I can scan the magazine tomorrow. Quality is not very high, unfortunately.
I agree Civento. I dont think they should have dropped the program all together.
- Thread starter
- #346
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
It takes more time to build a Ferrari than a volkswagen , the germans might saved time in the BF-109 but wasted a lot in a serie of high altitude programs like the Me-209 stüfe II, Me-309, Me-155, B&V-155, Ta.153, etc, etc and they achieved nothing. So putting in production the G-55 or even better the DB-603 powered G-56 wasnts big deal after all in my opinion.
And also in worth to note that the obsesion with a high altitude fighther began in july 1942 when some nazi spies (those who were not erased by the FBI) reported the flight of a new bomber, the B-29.
As we know there was no B-29 in Europe, all the effort and millions of RM of the hohenjager program was 67 ta-152H...ridiculous.
G-56.
Civettone
Tech Sergeant
Not only was there no B-29 in Europe - I suppose they would have appeared if the war had dragged on - it was not the high altitude bomber the Germans feared it was: 600 km/h at a height of 14 km.
The research and resources that went into countering this non-existent threat are mind blowing! What's perhaps even worse ... if this mystery bomber had existed and appeared in late 1944 over Germany, the Germans would have had nothing to counter it.
This is a nice example of how your intelligence service can really mess it up. So when did they find out that the B-29 wasn't a hi-alt bomber? When the Japs got hit by them????
Oh yeah, I forgot the primary source to the Italian 5-series being tested at Rechlin: E-Stelle Nr 182/43 g.Kdos 27.2.1943, in: BA-MA RL 36/55. I've been trying to look it up at the Bundesarchiv website but no luck (so far). Would be interesting to read the original reports.
Kris
The research and resources that went into countering this non-existent threat are mind blowing! What's perhaps even worse ... if this mystery bomber had existed and appeared in late 1944 over Germany, the Germans would have had nothing to counter it.
This is a nice example of how your intelligence service can really mess it up. So when did they find out that the B-29 wasn't a hi-alt bomber? When the Japs got hit by them????
Oh yeah, I forgot the primary source to the Italian 5-series being tested at Rechlin: E-Stelle Nr 182/43 g.Kdos 27.2.1943, in: BA-MA RL 36/55. I've been trying to look it up at the Bundesarchiv website but no luck (so far). Would be interesting to read the original reports.
Kris
Gimmeacannon!
Airman
- 24
- Nov 23, 2006
I think the He 100 teamed with the Fw 187 could have given somebody some real ****. both very fast and both better aircraft than the Me pair.
Wespe
Airman 1st Class
Hi Gimmeacannon
On behalf of the Fw 187 you might be right, but the He-100 was technically too high tec to become reality in the early war period. Especially the cooling system did not work out. Even after replacing or adding a second cooler the plane had still major malfunctions. If the Luftwaffe would have persued on this plane it could have had a pretty good one in 1942-43 but also would have had "no" plane in 1941-42 besides the Bf-109's.
So in order to compensate the Bf-109, Tank did the right thing - meaning don't dream, take what ever you can get your hands on, and that was the Idea to take the in abundance produced BMW 801 engines and build a plane, the Fw-190A.
Wespe
On behalf of the Fw 187 you might be right, but the He-100 was technically too high tec to become reality in the early war period. Especially the cooling system did not work out. Even after replacing or adding a second cooler the plane had still major malfunctions. If the Luftwaffe would have persued on this plane it could have had a pretty good one in 1942-43 but also would have had "no" plane in 1941-42 besides the Bf-109's.
So in order to compensate the Bf-109, Tank did the right thing - meaning don't dream, take what ever you can get your hands on, and that was the Idea to take the in abundance produced BMW 801 engines and build a plane, the Fw-190A.
Wespe
Civettone
Tech Sergeant
The He 100D got rid of the surface vaporation all together and replaced it with a conventional radiator. A couple of weeks ago I was looking for the article on the He 100 but couldn't find it, but I don't think it mentions any cooling problems on the He 100D.
The BMW 801 was designed after the Fw 190 which first flew with the BMW 139, and was certainly not available in abundance. It took until 1942 before it was reliable enough (which is normal for new engines).
And what do you think about the Bf 109X with the BMW 801 engine?
Kris
Parmigiano
Senior Airman
@ Civettone ( others interested)
here is what I could do about drawings of Macchi C206 and C207, there is also a couple of small blurry pics of the prototype C205N MM499
Source is magazine 'Aerei nella Storia', issue 45, Dec 2005
Aerei nella Storia
here is what I could do about drawings of Macchi C206 and C207, there is also a couple of small blurry pics of the prototype C205N MM499
Source is magazine 'Aerei nella Storia', issue 45, Dec 2005
Aerei nella Storia
Wespe
Airman 1st Class
Hi Civettone,
I think that maybe you have to reshuffle your library and knowledge a bit. I am doing that for the past 35 years.
Regarding the Fw-190A
In 1935 the RLM decided to promote a high potential radial engine. One by Bramo-Fafnir and the second one at BMW, who took over Bramo and came out with the BMW 139. This engine however was no meeting the requirements and was not approved by the RLM. Therefore the RLM supported the continuation on the BMW 801.
The construction of the BMW 801 began in October 1939 and in April 1939 the first test run took place.
Tank's design team prepared two proposals; one based upon the use of the Daimler-Benz DB601 liquid-cooled engine and the other upon the use of the BMW 801 air-cooled radial engine. At that time the radial engine was not favored as a fighter power plant owing to its drag and the restrictions that its bulk placed upon forward view during taking-off and landing, and, in consequence, General Ernst Udet's decision to proceed with the development of the radial-engined fighter came as a profound surprise to Tank and his colleagues.
So Tank was in need for a radial engine, the RLM officially certified the BMW 801 in January 1940.
The BMW 139 was only installed in the Fw-190V prototypes, the prototype Fw-190V5 already had the BMW 801.
The original series production of the Fw-190A was entirely fitted with the BMW 801; The first unit to receive the Fw-190A1 with the BMW 801 was the II/ and IV/JG26 in August 1940. Tank took this engine into account also knowing it would be "easily available" due to its forwarded mass production by the RLM for bombers at the Siemens-Flugmotorenwerk, a total of over 21,000 BMW 801's were build starting in1941. DB 603 about 8,800 starting in 1941, and Jumo 213 about 9,000 starting in1942.
Regarding the He-100
In the crucial testing period from March 1938 till March 1939 the He-100 had severe cooling problems, also the plane had other major problems, notably a lack of directional stability, landing speeds, servicing the engine, cooling pumps failed, not to mention the maintenance attributes under field condition forwarded by the RLM, and therefore the "ONLY" alternative the Bf-109 "had" to be chosen.
Due to my studies in the last 35 years and many discussions with pilots, I definatly come to the conclusion that the "lacking" of a truly capable plane such as the Fw-190 in 1938/39 is one of the main reasons, for lacking of required performance during the BoB and any further actions by the Luftwaffe.
The fact that the Bf-109 had to be chosen as the prime fighter for the Luftwaffe and its resulting mass production, automatically brought an unstoppable production of a plane which had no outstanding attributes at all. That this plane had its "days" was mainly only due to the expertise and profound training of the initial Luftwaffe pilots, and the average and outnumbered air forces in the beginning of WWII.
Willi boy to my opinion was Germany's best businessmen, but defiantly not the producer or manufacturer of outstanding planes.
Just look at all the useless planes he managed to sell: Bf-109/Me-110/Me-210/Me-410, Me-163. Besides revolutionary planes such as the Me-323, or Me-262 nothing of use, just cannon fodder to the allies.
Unfortunately revolutionary designers such as Heinkel were not given the time and support due to the ongoing of history to develop superb and reliable aircrafts.
I do not ignore the fact, that in the continuance of this dreadful Bf-109 decision, more advanced and improved versions where forwarded by Entrepreneur Willi to the Luftwaffe, but they were never as good as those build by Fw, Junkers or even Arado.
So if you ask me about the opinion of a Messerschmitt, expecting a positive answer I would be the wrong person to ask.
Regards, Wespe
I think that maybe you have to reshuffle your library and knowledge a bit. I am doing that for the past 35 years.
Regarding the Fw-190A
In 1935 the RLM decided to promote a high potential radial engine. One by Bramo-Fafnir and the second one at BMW, who took over Bramo and came out with the BMW 139. This engine however was no meeting the requirements and was not approved by the RLM. Therefore the RLM supported the continuation on the BMW 801.
The construction of the BMW 801 began in October 1939 and in April 1939 the first test run took place.
Tank's design team prepared two proposals; one based upon the use of the Daimler-Benz DB601 liquid-cooled engine and the other upon the use of the BMW 801 air-cooled radial engine. At that time the radial engine was not favored as a fighter power plant owing to its drag and the restrictions that its bulk placed upon forward view during taking-off and landing, and, in consequence, General Ernst Udet's decision to proceed with the development of the radial-engined fighter came as a profound surprise to Tank and his colleagues.
So Tank was in need for a radial engine, the RLM officially certified the BMW 801 in January 1940.
The BMW 139 was only installed in the Fw-190V prototypes, the prototype Fw-190V5 already had the BMW 801.
The original series production of the Fw-190A was entirely fitted with the BMW 801; The first unit to receive the Fw-190A1 with the BMW 801 was the II/ and IV/JG26 in August 1940. Tank took this engine into account also knowing it would be "easily available" due to its forwarded mass production by the RLM for bombers at the Siemens-Flugmotorenwerk, a total of over 21,000 BMW 801's were build starting in1941. DB 603 about 8,800 starting in 1941, and Jumo 213 about 9,000 starting in1942.
Regarding the He-100
In the crucial testing period from March 1938 till March 1939 the He-100 had severe cooling problems, also the plane had other major problems, notably a lack of directional stability, landing speeds, servicing the engine, cooling pumps failed, not to mention the maintenance attributes under field condition forwarded by the RLM, and therefore the "ONLY" alternative the Bf-109 "had" to be chosen.
Due to my studies in the last 35 years and many discussions with pilots, I definatly come to the conclusion that the "lacking" of a truly capable plane such as the Fw-190 in 1938/39 is one of the main reasons, for lacking of required performance during the BoB and any further actions by the Luftwaffe.
The fact that the Bf-109 had to be chosen as the prime fighter for the Luftwaffe and its resulting mass production, automatically brought an unstoppable production of a plane which had no outstanding attributes at all. That this plane had its "days" was mainly only due to the expertise and profound training of the initial Luftwaffe pilots, and the average and outnumbered air forces in the beginning of WWII.
Willi boy to my opinion was Germany's best businessmen, but defiantly not the producer or manufacturer of outstanding planes.
Just look at all the useless planes he managed to sell: Bf-109/Me-110/Me-210/Me-410, Me-163. Besides revolutionary planes such as the Me-323, or Me-262 nothing of use, just cannon fodder to the allies.
Unfortunately revolutionary designers such as Heinkel were not given the time and support due to the ongoing of history to develop superb and reliable aircrafts.
I do not ignore the fact, that in the continuance of this dreadful Bf-109 decision, more advanced and improved versions where forwarded by Entrepreneur Willi to the Luftwaffe, but they were never as good as those build by Fw, Junkers or even Arado.
So if you ask me about the opinion of a Messerschmitt, expecting a positive answer I would be the wrong person to ask.
Regards, Wespe
"The fact that the Bf-109 had to be chosen as the prime fighter for the Luftwaffe and its resulting mass production, automatically brought an unstoppable production of a plane which had no outstanding attributes at all. That this plane had its "days" was mainly only due to the expertise and profound training of the initial Luftwaffe pilots, and the average and outnumbered air forces in the beginning of WWII.
Willi boy to my opinion was Germany's best businessmen, but defiantly not the producer or manufacturer of outstanding planes."
I do not profess to be highly knowledgable on this subject but the above struck me as quite true.
Willi boy to my opinion was Germany's best businessmen, but defiantly not the producer or manufacturer of outstanding planes."
I do not profess to be highly knowledgable on this subject but the above struck me as quite true.
Civettone
Tech Sergeant
Perhaps those 35 years should have been spent a bit better? If I read some of the biased things you've stated in this forum since your arrival, I wonder what this 35 years of study have brought to you.
As to the BMW 801 and Fw 190, I really don't see what your problem is. The Fw 190 design predates the BMW 801 design as it was first designed for the BMW 139 (or DB 605 if you will).
That is still in contradiction with your own words: "to take the in abundance produced BMW 801 engines and build a plane, the Fw-190A."
Now, on the Bf 109 vs Fw 190. I have a good feeling that there is probably an old topic on this board about the same subject, and just as probably counting many pages. But if you're willing to back up what you said about the Bf 109 having "no outstanding attributes at all", then please open a new topic where we can discuss this.
Kris
Morai_Milo
Banned
- 43
- Jan 22, 2007
German BMW and DB engine production,
U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey Aircraft Division Industry Report
U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey Aircraft Division Industry Report
Wespe
Airman 1st Class
Look at your own posts before you try and start to get personal on other members posts. So far all I can conclude from your previous posts is that you are trying to tell everybody desperately, that the Luftwaffe had no chance, no matter what they did.
Now do you really think that experienced members on this forum do not know that? So what are you posting that comment for, over and over again?
So just because, sometimes I let some humor spread into a topic, in order to avoid a head on clash, doesnt mean that I am willing to tollerate continious nonsense or lecturing such as in many of your posts, understood??
Wespe
Wespe said:
That part of the post was obviously implied to me. You again are using my words in the wrong context. You are not undestanding what I was saying and using them in a completly wrong way.
I never said that since the Me-262 could not carry a torpedo it was not the best plane of WW2. I used the torpedo as an example. You said the Me-262 was the most versatile aircraft when in reality it could only perform a few roles. Who cares if it could do them 100kmh hour faster than the fastest piston engine aircraft. I used the torpedo as an example of what other planes could do and still do the same roles as the Me-262 plus a lot more. Hell the Fw-190 and P-38 were more versatile than the Me-262.
So do me a favor, dont use my words incorrectly. If you dont understand what I said that is fine but dont use my words incorrectly and post them again. You got that?
Wespe
Airman 1st Class
Quote: Who cares if it could do them 100kmh hour faster than the fastest piston engine aircraft?
Answer: Any German pilot flying the Me-262, and any German pilot who's piston plane didn't stand a chance between 44 and 45.
Quote: Hell the Fw-190 and P-38 were more versatile than the Me-262
Question: in what aspects was a Fw-190 supposedly more versatile?
Wespe
Answer: Any German pilot flying the Me-262, and any German pilot who's piston plane didn't stand a chance between 44 and 45.
Quote: Hell the Fw-190 and P-38 were more versatile than the Me-262
Question: in what aspects was a Fw-190 supposedly more versatile?
Wespe
It could successfully perform more roles than the Me-262. Plain and simple. It is a fact and facts can not be disputed.
Wespe
Airman 1st Class
As a fighter: NO
As a Recon: NO
As a Nightfighter: NO
As a Ground: attackplane: Maybe
As a trainer: both did their job
What else? Sofar it is 4:2 for the Me-262
If you want to move this post to another thread I dont mind since it doesn't belong in this one.
Wespe
As a Recon: NO
As a Nightfighter: NO
As a Ground: attackplane: Maybe
As a trainer: both did their job
What else? Sofar it is 4:2 for the Me-262
If you want to move this post to another thread I dont mind since it doesn't belong in this one.
Wespe
