Doras Galoras - Unofficial GB

[Zaggy]

so how does this sound ?

RLM 83/75 fuselage uppers
RAF sky looking RLM 76 lower fuselage

if lower wing leading edges are RLM81 would that make the upper wings and tail RLM81/75 (or lighter shade as suggested by Andy)what pattern ?
RLM 81/NMF lower wings with control surfaces and lower tail surfaces in RLM76

any thoughts

I can't think of a confirmed example of RLM81/75 wings - Japo suggests RLM81/76 may have been used on some wing sets (EE suggests RLM81/Neutral Light Grey), but generally, if you're going RLM81 on a wing set, then the complement to that is RLM82.

As for the RLM76, RAF Sky is a Greeny/Blue right (like the mysterious RLM84*)? Because it seems almost certain that the 500-series was generally found in the Cream-Grey colour (like an RLM02, lightened with white - or a REALLY light Radome Tan).

That profile you have just doesnt look right for either a 400- or 500-series a/c - RLM83 and RLM75 didnt appear on the fuselages of those blocks, IIRC... I'll do some quick poking round for you shortly.

On the good side, Alclad Black primer showed up today! So Im back in the game!


Dan

 

[Zaggy]

Sorry, I take that back re: the lower fuselage colour - Japo seems to go with the Cream variant, while EE goes with the RLM84* Sky Green colour...

 

[Zaggy]

OK, This is what I have come up with, based upon the only pic of the cat that I know, known II./JG 301 images, my spreadsheets and etc.

Werk Nummern - to date, the KNOWN JG 301 are predominately 2102xx and 2109xx (Sorau) in the first instance and later a number of 500xxx (Mimetall) machines (5004xx appears often). This is NOT an absolute though; at least ONE 600-/601- a/c can be seen in the background of the 'Herbert Notler' image (Japo vol I pg21). However the general consensus seems to point to a 500-series machine.

As for colours on that, well, there was early and late schemes; but you should check out the colour images of 500570 "Blue 12+-", which is pretty typical (to my mind anyway) of what late war camo had become; admittedly this a/c had been depot repaired. The fabric surfaces are in Blue-Grey, the majoriy of the sides and lower surfaces are in the creamy-colour, with light oversprays of probably RLM83 as well as extra RLM82 on the nose too, over an existing RLM81/82 scheme. The wings seem to be RLM81/76 according to Japo (but could be heavily faded RLM75, which would give a neutral grey look)...

To me, the known colour photo's really do suggest the creamy-colour fuselage side/lower colour, so its likely a safe bet!


Dan

 

[rochie]

many thanks for your time Dan.

ok been looking around and do you think it could look like this from Erik Mark seen here Revell-Hasegawa 1/32 Hybrid Fw 190D-9 | Large Scale Planes

 

[Zaggy]

@Rochie - I've ended up semi-confusing myself about the 500-series. That said, it would be hard to go wrong with a scheme like that in the LSP build; its not exactly how i'd interpret things (ie, I'd go either RLM81 or RLM83 in place of RLM74 on the wings and Japo seems to conclude there was more RLM81 on the fuselage than the LSP chap has done), but thats part of the fun of late luftwaffe types!

That LSP article does make me want to build my 1/32 Fw 190D-9 next however - argh, decisions! I havent even finished this D-15 and I have a list of possible 'next projects' (1/32 He 219A, 1/48 Bf 109G-10 or G-6AS/N - and because I suddenly feel the need to build a jet or two (plus I just scored these REALLY cheap) a Hasegawa 1/48 F-14B (with aires 'everythings') or a 'double project' of a 1/48 RAAF Mirage IIIO (HobbyBoss RH conversion) and IIID (Heller Red Roo conversion)... But back to the D-15 for now.


Dan

 

[rochie]

thanks Dan

jut thought i did white 12 of 5 Jg301 W.Nr 500408 a while back looked like the above but with RLM82/83 wings Doh !!!!

so i will just do a similar paint job to that ???

 

[Wayne Little]

Always going to be a tough one Karl with only a partial image and no Werk Nummer to run with....

 

[rochie]

Always going to be a tough one Karl with only a partial image and no Werk Nummer to run with....

yeah i know !

might go with Andy's suggestion as i like the idea of contrasting wing colours and that way it'll look a little different to white 12 !

just noticed the wings on white 12 are 2 greens and not green/grey as Dan hinted at in his last post ( must read more carefully )

 

[Wayne Little]

A bit of variation won't hurt mate, go for it!

 

[Crimea_River]

As Wayne pointed out to me once as well, that white band on the LSP Yellow 15 didn't exist either tough at one time it was consistent with contemporary thinking.

 

[tigerdriver]

Well i have finally made a start on the office and the engine plug .

Eduard make some lovely detail and some scary small bits

And i am just trying to get my head round PE for the first time. Man some of those bits are so small I can barely see them much less bend and fit them!

Pics to follow

 

[Wayne Little]

Bring it on Dave!

 

[Zaggy]

regarding 500666, I too dont think there was a White band in front of the Yellow rumpfband; but I do beleive I can see a RED II. Gruppe Bar, in a 'higher than usual' position on the rumpfband. To me, there is a 3inch(?) red bar, across the yellow, who's top-fwd corner contacts the rear fuselage jacking points (on the front edge of the yellow band) - Japo seem to interpret this as a stain coming from the Jacking point (but my question is, what would be leaking from there to cause the stain?), while EE seem to overlook this and stick with the convention 'white band' theory (which in all honesty, I can see where that comes from - there is something that looks lighter there).

My main 'thought' on the subject is, why get a new a/c, paint the Rumpfband AND the Tactical Markings, but then just leave out the Gruppe Bar, where earlier AND later a/c have it?


Dan

 

[Lucky13]

As it has it, the D-9 that I want to do, 'White 13', WNr. 600174 from 1./JG 26 is from the same 1./JG26, or it seems, as E/E's 'White 13' WNr. 210982. Would they both have had the same styled '13'?

Being that WNr. 210982 is a Focke Wulf machine and the WNr. 600174 is a Fiesler one, will that make a difference in style of the '13' (should they be different) and camouflage? WNr. 210982 being built between Nov. '44 and Jan. '45 and the WNr. 600164 about the same time, Oct. '44 and Jan. '45, by different factories though...
I'll be buying the decal sheet for the E/E's 'White 13', just wondering if it's any idea to buy two of them or not....

 

[Zaggy]

OK, Camo was applied at the factory (various sub-assemblies were delivered in various degree's of finish, but the factory still passed a spray gun over parts of the a/c to tie the parts together and cover anything that still needed covering and of course applied the National insignia and Werk Nummern), while Unit Markings (Rumpfband and Tactical codes) were applied at Unit Level. So, to GENERALISE from your example above, Focke-Wulf built machines, will have a different camo (and National Insignia's) to the Fieseler built machines; BUT the machines going to the same unit, will PROBABLY have a very similiar style of Unit Level marking... So yes, you're pretty safe to assume '13' on one a/c and '13' on a different a/c around the same time, will look much the same.

Now, lets look more closely at probable camo's:

210982 - probably wore the transition RLM76/82/83 scheme, with solid RLM76 under wing surfaces and LIKELY little bits of RLM81 on the tail! National Insignia were all standard FW sizes (small tail, std fuselage and B4 underwing)...
600174 - much tougher to make a call, as much of this block had small (600mm) white fuselage B5's with large (530mm) black H3 and MY personal gut feeling is that the a/c with White B5's were in RLM74/75/75 - the B&W pics make it very hard to tell! Regardless on your take on the colours (RLM74/75/76, RLM76/82/83, RLM76/81/83 or whatever other combination of parts you want - no one really seems to want to make a definitive call on some of these a/c) most of the block featured the rear half of the lower wing surfaces in bare metal. Also around this point in the block, we seen a very unique and denser form of 'spotty/streaky' mottling appear for a while (check out 600150 and 600175 for example), which seems to evolve as we move on into the 601-series.

Note for JG 26, the seem to have had a few a/c with an 'early' style rumpf band which did NOT use fuselage extention as the reference points, instead was based completely off the final fuselage rivet line... - later style Rumpfband used the last rivet line and rear edge of the fuselage extension as limits, with a line 50mm back from the front edge of the fuselage extension as the 'centreline'...


D

 

[Crimea_River]

Dan, re 500666, if you get yourself a copy of Captured Eagles by Gaemperle, there's another pic of this wreck taken at a later date that very clearly shows the Gruppe bar.

 

[Zaggy]

@Crimea - I have myself a copy of that, and hey look! Exactly what I have seen in the earlier pictures for years - a II. Gruppe bar PLAINLY visible; which does make sense with what we know about JG 301

 

[Crimea_River]

...and definitely no white band.

 

[Wayne Little]

I did like the white band variation, but we now know it just wasn't so...

 

[Zaggy]

Yeah, agreed Wayne - but for some reason, EE have persisted with the white band for years!