MW-50 Bf 109s Vs Fw 190 A

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You never answered my request for you to further explain your "prop-to-tail ratio" either. At least explain the "prop" part and tell me how dividing the "prop" by the lift force (the "tail") creates a number that means anything.



Ok, one last time: At WEP I assume 1800 hp is 1800 lbs of force in the prop disc: 80% of that pivoting back compared to the trajectory is 1440 pounds (working assumption), and I would use as a rule of thumb that this 80% prop face value means that, for every 1° of angle of attack increase, there is also 0.8° of extra lift through thrust slanting (0.7° if it was 70% of the disc face tilting back, but here 0.8° because it is 80%).

Tilt of the prop disc face is only an initial set up event: It lasts a proverbial micro-second: All further rotation is centered near CG-CL area...

This 1440 lbs prop value is gradually built up by 205 pounds for each AoA degree to 7°, maximum sustained angle of attack, totalling 1440 pounds at 7° as the assumed prop's fully topped-out resistance to assymetrical air inflow (due to turn assymetry).

The pilot stick is not beating the 1440 pounds at the nose by itself: The pilot cannot "feel" those loads, only the aircraft does, ever since the CL moved in front of the CG during its micro-second collapse... The CL is shifted in front of the CG now, and the increasing turn gives the CL 7° AoA of lift + 5.6° of thrust slanting: Total : 12.6° of equivalent AoA lift.

Say a 10 000 lbs aircraft at 7° AoA means 3Gs: That's 30 000 lbs of lift: + 80% of that means + 24 000 lbs of lift. Total: 54 000 lbs of lift.

A void is created above the wing when the CL shifted down and forward: This is the work of the mysterious "CL Collapse", so the top/bottom wing pressure imbalance IS there as the angle of thrust rotates down on top of the increasing AoA to the tune of plus 80% over the AoA value (up to presumed 7° "real" AoA max.)... That upper wing void seemingly remains during the turn, and increases in proportion to the AoA + thrust slanting total... (Weird!)

This above-wing extra void might be "maintained" by the bottom boundary layer leaking over the wing, going forward from the trailing edge (this is of course unknown at this point)... This is a direct result of the prop's initial resistance to the elevator: Resistance at both ends means slight CL "collapse": Barely a micro-second, and of course simultaneous with the initial prop "set-up" tilt...

If the CL is collapsing down and forward, it cannot be anywhere near the point of rotation during this micro-second collapse phase.... This is not hard to visualize! The aircraft is being loaded at both ends for a micro-second, which squeezes the CL forward as it goes down from the extra load...

After that:

Going straight down: CG with 30 000 lbs at 3 G. Going straight up in front of that now: Total CL at 54 000 lbs.

30 000 lbs down and 54 000 lbs up are inter-acting with each other as a "scissor action", relieving the elevator's effort to lift the nose, which is why the pilot cannot feel the prop's resistance to assymetry during the turn...

1440 lbs at the prop is not going straight downward for its part, but it does not want to go back and up either, since it pushes forward and slightly down....: To keep in balance the combined scissor action, the leverage advantage of the prop must be close to 30 000 lbs + 54 000 lbs divided by 1440 lbs: 58 to one for each up/down force's lever, 29 to one for both levers combined: For a ten foot nose that means here the CL is around 4.13793 inches in front of the CG when it has shifted forward under the initial micro-second elevator effort...

Why close to 29 to one? Because the nose does go up in the end, and the elevators also do help lift the nose a little after all...

And 54 000 lbs of load on the wing is like 5.4 Gs of wing bending at 3 Gs of turning....

And that is how engine power can affect the wingload.

And no, I can't make it any more simpler than that... If you don't want to understand it, don't.

Gaston
 
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Gatson is the only on that can do that. But he has an inability to explain his theories.

He needs to draw up some simple diagrams to help explain what the hell he is on about.

btw Gaston, 1800hp does not necessarily equal 1800lbs thrust. (And don't forget the exhaust thrust, which could be 150-300lbs worth on Spitfires, IIRC).
 
AH HA! it is all clear to me now!!!

The Hellcat turned well, not because of it's big wing, but because it's engine and prop were mounted at a down angle which means that it started with a negative "prop-to-tail ratio" and so stayed less than most other fighters at any angle of attack.

I am still having trouble with the "micro-second collapse" affecting a 360 degree turn that takes 18-24 seconds though :)
 
Gatson is the only on that can do that. But he has an inability to explain his theories.

He needs to draw up some simple diagrams to help explain what the hell he is on about.

btw Gaston, 1800hp does not necessarily equal 1800lbs thrust. (And don't forget the exhaust thrust, which could be 150-300lbs worth on Spitfires, IIRC).

Wuzak - as usual you are impeccably tolerant and kind..... 1800hp will NEVER equate to anything near a 1hp:1pd thrust - inclusive of exhaust thrust - for any propeller driven aircraft designed and produced, theoretical or actual...
 
This is like a Andy Kaufman joke, ( remember him on Taxi ?) i'll bet even Gaston is laughing.
The joke is on us, for taking the time to read his nonsense.
 
I assume 1800 hp is 1800 lbs of force in the prop disc:
Assume wrong. What kinds of force? Torsional? Tension? Is the load constant through the length of the blade? Is it at the hub as well? You know, I'm all one for free speech and I value the opinions of everyone who participates on this forum, but from what I have read so far you're totally talking out of your @ss. I'm not one to verify what you say mathematically (perhaps Bill might do that if he has nothing else to do in the world), but so far you written long threads and made little sense.
 
This is like a Andy Kaufman joke, ( remember him on Taxi ?) i'll bet even Gaston is laughing.
The joke is on us, for taking the time to read his nonsense.

TOM - I personally agree. There are only two options. One, despite many reasoned requests for 'the math behind his assumptions' or even a translation of various forces into a free body diagram, he continues to mangle physics as articulated in the the english language like someone with Tourette's Syndrome. Two, he truly believes what he is saying.

I would prefer to think that he is not truly demented and therefore falls into the category of having enormous fun with the poor guys he sucks into a dialogue with him more than once.
 
"despite many reasoned requests for 'the math behind his assumptions' or even a translation of various forces into a free body diagram, he continues to mangle physics as articulated in the the english language like someone with Tourette's Syndrome"

:big6: :big6: :big6:
 
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Gaston:
1. Thrust in pounds does not equal Horsepower.
Dynamic Thrust (lbs) = Power (HP) / (Velocity (knots) * (6076/(3600 * 550)))
By way of example, a Grumman Hellcat at combat was about 12,325 pounds at combat weight. It had 2000 HP, but let's say he was using 1800 HP to stay with your example. The equation above is NOT for static thrust, it is for dynamic thrust. At 174 knots (about 200 mph) the thrust is 3,371 pounds for a thrust to weight ratio of .2735, which is typical for a WWII fighter. You aren't even close. There are other ways to calculate this force within a few percent, but they won't equal the horsepower being used.

2. I do not know what "80% of it pivoting back compared to the trajectory" even means. It doesn't make sense to me, but I am not dismissing it. Perhaps the words are just not quite right for me to see it. But, the thrust is the thrust. It does not act along the line of wing incidence. Most engine mounts were canted downward several degrees and had several degrees of side thrust compared to the fuselage datum line The wing usually had several degrees of positive incidence.

3. The angle of thrust to the angle of attack is NOT the same as the angle of wing incidence due to down and side cant, but is reasonably close. The actual angle of thrust in a propeller fighter is almost always less than the angle of attack due to down thrust built into the engine mount. The component of thrust along the angle of travel is the thrust times the cosine of the angle of attack, and the component that adds to lift is the thrust times the sine of the angle of attack. It is not constant but varies with the angle of attack.

4. The Center of lift does not move unless the airflow goes transonic or supersonic.

5. The pilot cannot feel the thrust in the stick at all. He feels the elevator and aileron out of trim forces only. That's why he needs trim tabs. He feels the rudder out of trim force in the rudder pedals if he keeps the ball centered. If he doesn't, he just slips or skids through the air without feeling it … unless the slip or skid is enough to induce a spin.

6. A 10,000 pound airplane at 3g needs 30,000 pounds of lift to fly at 3 g, not 54,000. Any added lift from the propeller thrust just decreases the amount of lift the wing needs to produce. 3g – 3g. In Algebra, the "=" sign means EQUALS. 30,000 pounds does not equal 54,000 pounds … it equals 30,000 pounds. The real only "extra lift" needed is to counteract the tail downforce. So the 30,000 pounds turns into a bit more in a conventional wing-first aircraft and bit less in a canard aircraft (because the forward tail lifts upward instead of downward) but not an extra 24,000 pounds.

7. There is no void created above the wing; the center of lift doesn't shift since the local airflow is not either transonic or supersonic.

8. Your theories are so far off from the aerodynamic formulas that produced the actual aircraft as to be out of the ballpark ... they're craptacular, to quote Bart Simpson. Gaston, the WWII fighters FLEW AS DESIGNED, meaning the designers knew what they were doing and their formulas were correct. As I said before, you need to take a course in aerodynamics, not try to reinvent the science.


I have exceeded my prop-to-tail ratio for this evening and need another beer. Gaston, you need one, too ... and buy that aerodynamics text before you read another combat report that has someone turning in 360° circles for 50 turns. More than 2 - 3 was a death sentence from the targets friends and wingmen (not necessarily the same people). Single engagement, NOBODY went for 10 horizontal turns except maybe in a Lufbrey with a few friends around also in the Lufbrey. Oh wait, that was WWI.

Because of the ratio, I still need some tail ... it's late ...
 
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I smell a Nobel Prize for Physics for the brand new theories explained in these threads........

:lol:
 
I smell a Nobel Prize for Physics for the brand new theories explained in these threads........

:lol:

Elmas - the odors you sense are found in many pastures and known far and wide as bovine fecal matter - highly concentrated and in this case, and delivered by the ton (or Tonne). I believe the Brits shipped this material by sail and noted on the manifest as Shipped High In Transit..
 
Elmas - the odors you sense are found in many pastures and known far and wide as bovine fecal matter - highly concentrated and in this case, and delivered by the ton (or Tonne). I believe the Brits shipped this material by sail and noted on the manifest as Shipped High In Transit..
Just think of the play on words his name may be.
Gaston = ton (of) gas
 

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