WW2 with no Spitfire - Hurricane being primary interceptor

[RCAFson]

????You're joking, right?? A dive speed of 390 mph IAS WAS SERIOUSLY LIMITED for combat! The Spitfire was slated for 450 - 480 mph IAS; various 109 models 750 km/h or 466 mph; can't find the dive speeds for Fw 190A, but it could outdive the Spitfire V with ease. Climbing speed was just as important and once again the Hurricane II lagged way behind.

No it wasn't limiting. You're confusing Vne with ability to actually attain these speeds and/or the ability to accelerate in a dive. The Hurricane's draggy wings meant it simply didn't have enough power to exceed Vne in a dive. OTOH, some aircraft such as the 109/190/p47/P38 had to be careful to avoid approaching Vne due to compressability problems.

Design studies and we have no idea of the modifications required to boost a Hurricane's speed to 425mph. Presumably he realised it would be just far too much of a redesign and might as well start from scratch, which is why he went on to design the Fury/Sea Fury family.

Camm did and he said it could be done. However, he didn't do it because there was already a suitable aircraft in production, namely the Spitfire. The Tornado/Typhoon/Tempest and Fury were designed around much more powerful engines than the Griffon but if the Hurricane was the only game in town then, in all probability, it would have been given the Merlin 60/Griffon because these were proven engines that were suited to it it's weight and airframe size.

Not without adding an intercooler radiator, thus forcing a major redesign of the cooling system.

That wasn't much of an obstacle for the Spitfire and Mustang and probably not for the Hurricane either.

For sure, but why suspend development of a far better fighter in the hope of maybe improving the Hurricane enough to make it into a fighter with Spitfire V like performance?

Also, please explain how the fabric covering of the rear fuselage, fin, rudder and horizontal control surfaces would have coped at 400 mph + horizontal flight.

Which fighter are you talking about?As I've explained the Merlin and Griffon were not suitable engines for Hawker's follow ons to the Hurricane.

The Hurricane was dived to speeds far in excess of 400mph! Vne is 390 IAS. The fabric doesn't care about diving versus horizontal flight...

Oh wow 44 Hurricanes for 16 109s - mostly Fs, but doesn't how many...no source given.

The data was from Malta, the Spitfire Years and it wasn't 16 109Fs for 44 Hurricanes, it was 80 Luftwaffe aircraft for 44 Hurricanes.

 

[RCAFson]

According to Mason's Hawker Hurricane A/c Since 1920 (1961) p. 252 Hurri Mk IV featured 350lb more armour than Mk II. If much better armoured Il-2 was still vulnerable to 20mm AAA fire, surely Hurri Mk IV was even more vulnerable. And experience proved that, Mk IVs were used in ETO late 43 early 44 but proved to be too vulnerable and were replaced by Typhoons asap.

Juha

Mason compared the IVD to the IID (in Hawker Hurricane) which was already relatively well armoured .
What aircraft wasn't vulnerable to 20mm fire? Experience showed that the Soviets were willing to use much slower aircraft than the HHIV for ground attack. The HH IV was largely phased out of W. Europe because better aircraft came along, however this doesn't mean that the HH IV couldn't have done the job if needs be.

 

[wuzak]

No it wasn't limiting. You're confusing Vne with ability to actually attain these speeds and/or the ability to accelerate in a dive. The Hurricane's draggy wings meant it simply didn't have enough power to exceed Vne in a dive.

So, you are saying that the Hurricame was so limited that it could not reach its limiting speed?

Camm did and he said it could be done. However, he didn't do it because there was already a suitable aircraft in production, namely the Spitfire. The Tornado/Typhoon/Tempest and Fury were designed around much more powerful engines than the Griffon but if the Hurricane was the only game in town then, in all probability, it would have been given the Merlin 60/Griffon because these were proven engines that were suited to it it's weight and airframe size.

The Griffon wasn't around when the Tornado/Typhoon began development.

The Griffon first ran in late 1939. Like many other wartime projects, development was put on the backburner during the BoB.

The Griffon was intended for FAA aircraft. It was a because of suggestion from a member of the AM that investigations to install the Griffon in the Spitfire were initiated. Subsequently the Griffon was redesigned to help it fit in the Spit. I suppose that might have happened with the Hurricane, but with the Tornado/Typhoon under development I suspect not. Production Griffons don't appear until 1942.

The Merlin 60 was intended for use in the high altitude Wellington. It was Lord Hives that suggested that it might work well in the Spitfire. No Spitfire, would Hives suggest the Merlin 61 for the Hurricane? Again, I suspect not, due to the Tornado/Typhoon.

That wasn't much of an obstacle for the Spitfire and Mustang and probably not for the Hurricane either.

The Mustang X had an intercooler radiator mounted in the nose, which was found to be unsatisfactory.

The P-61B had a largely redesigned cooling matrix.

The Spitfire VIII/IX had double the radiator area of the V.

Which fighter are you talking about?As I've explained the Merlin and Griffon were not suitable engines for Hawker's follow ons to the Hurricane.

Because the Tornado/Typhoon were big, heavy monsters.

 

[RCAFson]

So, you are saying that the Hurricame was so limited that it could not reach its limiting speed?

A Vne of 390 mph = a TAS of ~546mph.

Having a Vne higher than the aircraft can reach is a good thing! And it explains why no Hurricane was ever lost from structural failure.

The Griffon wasn't around when the Tornado/Typhoon began development.

The Griffon first ran in late 1939. Like many other wartime projects, development was put on the backburner during the BoB.

The Griffon was intended for FAA aircraft. It was a because of suggestion from a member of the AM that investigations to install the Griffon in the Spitfire were initiated. Subsequently the Griffon was redesigned to help it fit in the Spit. I suppose that might have happened with the Hurricane, but with the Tornado/Typhoon under development I suspect not. Production Griffons don't appear until 1942.

Given the similarities between the Henley and the HH, the engineering to fit the Griffon was already done.

The Merlin 60 was intended for use in the high altitude Wellington. It was Lord Hives that suggested that it might work well in the Spitfire. No Spitfire, would Hives suggest the Merlin 61 for the Hurricane? Again, I suspect not, due to the Tornado/Typhoon.

Right no one else would have ever suggested it for Spitfire or Hurricane, even though Camm wanted to fit a Griffon in the HH?

The Mustang X had an intercooler radiator mounted in the nose, which was found to be unsatisfactory.

The P-61B had a largely redesigned cooling matrix.

The Spitfire VIII/IX had double the radiator area of the V.

Yet these aircraft initially had no intercooler, and then they had...amazing what engineers can do.

Because the Tornado/Typhoon were big, heavy monsters.

Monsters that the AM wanted because of their speed and firepower.

 

[Aozora]

No it wasn't limiting. You're confusing Vne with ability to actually attain these speeds and/or the ability to accelerate in a dive. The Hurricane's draggy wings meant it simply didn't have enough power to exceed Vne in a dive. OTOH, some aircraft such as the 109/190/p47/P38 had to be careful to avoid approaching Vne due to compressability problems.

Oh the ignorance! The Hurricane could not compete with the 109, let alone the 190 in a dive, nor could it hope to accelerate away. THIS WAS A MAJOR LIMITATION.

Camm did and he said it could be done. However, he didn't do it because there was already a suitable aircraft in production, namely the Spitfire. The Tornado/Typhoon/Tempest and Fury were designed around much more powerful engines than the Griffon but if the Hurricane was the only game in town then, in all probability, it would have been given the Merlin 60/Griffon because these were proven engines that were suited to it it's weight and airframe size.

You ASSUME he didn't continue because of the Spitfire. Nor do you have any idea of the changes Camm was proposing, nor how long such a major redesign would take. Where are the facts on this? You think the Hurricane would have remained the only game in town...that's a a lot of "if", when historically the Air Ministry did not depend on one single design. Camm and you might think he could turn the Hurricane into a 425 mph fighter - the Air Ministry thought otherwise.

That wasn't much of an obstacle for the Spitfire and Mustang and probably not for the Hurricane either.

Again you are making assumptions. For example, modifying the Mustang from the P-51 to P-51B involved a major redesign which took up more man-hours than designing and building the original NA-73X; also note the radiators were integrated into the fuselage/airscoop, creating minimal drag, as opposed to the Hurricane's installation which suspended the radiators below the wing/fuselage in an installation which created far greater drag.

As shown earlier the Hurricane was already a draggier aircraft than the Typhoon; without a major redesign of the cooling system for a 60 series Merlin which (I repeat, getting sick of having to) required-an inter-cool-er-and-inter-cool-er-radia-tor which also entailed a redesign of the Hurricane's forward fuselage as well as its cooling system.

Which fighter are you talking about?As I've explained the Merlin and Griffon were not suitable engines for Hawker's follow ons to the Hurricane.

Oy vay! The Tempest - and you are seriously suggesting that the Tempest should have been further delayed in favour of your Supercane???

Okay, I give up because I am sick of having to repeat myself so much. If you want to believe that an essentially 1920s design (the Hurricane was essentially a biplane Fury sans the top wing) could be transformed into a 425 mph fighter suitable for frontline service over Europe in 1943-45, without a huge redesign amounting to an almost new aircraft, go ahead and believe it. If you want to believe that the Hurricane could have been modified to do 380-390 mph, that's okay - we all need our comforting illusions from time to time. 8)

The data was from Malta, the Spitfire Years and it wasn't 16 109Fs for 44 Hurricanes, it was 80 Luftwaffe aircraft for 44 Hurricanes.

Nope, you specified 109s vs Hurricanes and the latter got hammered.

 

[wuzak]

A Vne of 390 mph = a TAS of ~546mph.

Having a Vne higher than the aircraft can reach is a good thing! And it explains why no Hurricane was ever lost from structural failure.

Also makes Vne a pointless number.

That is the TAS at but one altitude.

Given the similarities between the Henley and the HH, the engineering to fit the Griffon was already done.

The Henley was an engine test hack for Rolls-Royce. So the engine installation may not have been applicable to the Hurricane, probably not for production either. Henley also had a different radiator layout.

And it still doesn't escape the fact that the Griffon wasn't available until 1942.

Also, Spitfire with Griffon II (which would have been the version in Camm's estimates) made 400mph. Can't take an estimate that suggests a 425mph Griffon Hurricane seriously. Particularly when it is faster than estimates for the Spitfire, which had been faster on the same engines from the start.

Right no one else would have ever suggested it for Spitfire or Hurricane, even though Camm wanted to fit a Griffon in the HH?

Someone may have suggested the Merlin 61 for the Spitfire, but Hives was the first.

As far as I know, nobody suggested the Merlin 61 for the Hurricane (except you) - not even Camm.

Camm may have wanted the Griffon for his baby. But is there any suggestion that anyone else seriouly considered it?

Yet these aircraft initially had no intercooler, and then they had...amazing what engineers can do.

They needed more cooling capacity - and nt just for the intercooler. That would mean a heavy redesign of the Hurricane's radiator.

The initial Tornado prototype used a radiator in a similar position to the Hurricane. It didn't work well. So not sure that an enlarged Hurricane rad in teh normal position would necessarily have worked out well.

Monsters that the AM wanted because of their speed and firepower.

They wanted the speed and firepower. They didn't necessarily want the behemoths that they got.

FWIW, Spitfire was eventually able to have the same firepower (ie 4 x 20mm cannon, not the 12 x 0.303" from the initial specification) with the C-wing.

The performance of those monsters was also disappointing to the AM. And it was matched, or exceeded in some measures, by Spitfires in short order.

 

[RCAFson]

The Henley was an engine test hack for Rolls-Royce. So the engine installation may not have been applicable to the Hurricane, probably not for production either. Henley also had a different radiator layout.

And it still doesn't escape the fact that the Griffon wasn't available until 1942.

Also, Spitfire with Griffon II (which would have been the version in Camm's estimates) made 400mph. Can't take an estimate that suggests a 425mph Griffon Hurricane seriously. Particularly when it is faster than estimates for the Spitfire, which had been faster on the same engines from the start.

The Henley carried it's bombs on the centre-line so the rad had to go somewhere else. We know, from previous discussion in this thread, that Camm was working on the thin wing Tempest in March 1940 and this is probably about the same time or so that he made his Griffon proposal; this suggests that he may have inserted a thin wing into the Griffon Hurricane design as well.

Someone may have suggested the Merlin 61 for the Spitfire, but Hives was the first.

As far as I know, nobody suggested the Merlin 61 for the Hurricane (except you) - not even Camm.

Camm may have wanted the Griffon for his baby. But is there any suggestion that anyone else seriouly considered it?

As I've stated repeatedly, with the Spitfire in production (and given the massive investment in it) there was no reason to consider the Merlin 60 series or the Griffon for the Hurricane other than as a design study.

They needed more cooling capacity - and nt just for the intercooler. That would mean a heavy redesign of the Hurricane's radiator.

The initial Tornado prototype used a radiator in a similar position to the Hurricane. It didn't work well. So not sure that an enlarged Hurricane rad in teh normal position would necessarily have worked out well.

These are just design details that were eminently solvable.

They wanted the speed and firepower. They didn't necessarily want the behemoths that they got.

FWIW, Spitfire was eventually able to have the same firepower (ie 4 x 20mm cannon, not the 12 x 0.303" from the initial specification) with the C-wing.

The performance of those monsters was also disappointing to the AM. And it was matched, or exceeded in some measures, by Spitfires in short order.

The Spitfire was never able to match the low level speeds (the Typhoon never had a two stage blower) plus the 4 x 20mm outfit was very rare and it never carried the ammo or bomb load of the Typhoon/tempest, however compared to the USAAF/USN PW2800 engined fighters, the Hawkers were rather svelte.

 

[Aozora]

These are just design details that were eminently solvable.

To you, sure, these are mere "design details", but you've shown nothing to indicate to Sydney Camm how he should have solved them.

The Spitfire was never able to match the low level speeds (the Typhoon never had a two stage blower) plus the 4 x 20mm outfit was very rare and it never carried the ammo or bomb load of the Typhoon/tempest, however compared to the USAAF/USN PW2800 engined fighters, the Hawkers were rather svelte.

!

Spitfire XIV Performance

Typhoon IB Performance Data

Tempest V Performance Data

The Tempest did not carry bombs operationally during WW2.

 

[Glider]

At the end of the day the Hurricane was neer as fast as the SPitfire when they had the same engines. I don't see how a change of engine, any engine will change that fact. Certainly they could probably go faster but not overtake what was a faster aircraft.

The wing design was by general agreement too thick for high speed flight and would need to be changed.

 

[wuzak]

Inappropriate comment removed.

 

[Juha]

Mason compared the IVD to the IID (in Hawker Hurricane) which was already relatively well armoured .
What aircraft wasn't vulnerable to 20mm fire? Experience showed that the Soviets were willing to use much slower aircraft than the HHIV for ground attack. The HH IV was largely phased out of W. Europe because better aircraft came along, however this doesn't mean that the HH IV couldn't have done the job if needs be.

Which Mk IID?The first 92 Mk IIDs had the same armour scheme as IIC. Soviets used clearly better armoured plane and combat experience showed that Mk IV was too vulnerable for ETO. Of course one had to use what he had if he didn't want give up.

Juha

 

[Neil Stirling]

Hawker document covering the proposed Griffon Hurricane, page 2 is missing, however, my hand written note gives:-

330mph at 8,000ft
370mph at 23,000ft
Time to 20,000ft 6.5 mins.

Hurricane V

Neil.

 

[Shortround6]

I would like to thank you Neil for presenting this.

I would also like to point out to all of our would be engine "swappers" the modifications needed to stuff a Griffon into a Hurricane, A SINGLE STAGE Griffon, like a lengthened rear fuselage and a modified center section of the wing to move the wing forward in relation to the engine for CG reasons.

Swapping engines is easy, getting them to run right is some what harder, getting the airplane to fly right and not be a dangerous beast suitable for only the most skilled (or foolhardy) is even harder.

 

[RCAFson]

Hawker document covering the proposed Griffon Hurricane, page 2 is missing, however, my hand written note gives:-

330mph at 8,000ft
370mph at 23,000ft
Time to 20,000ft 6.5 mins.



Hurricane V



Neil.

Thanks very much for the info - really interesting stuff!

I note the great disparity between the proposed performance for this aircraft and the proposal mentioned by Morgan and Shacklady - do you have any thoughts on the differences between the two?

Also the data card for the Mk V seems to fit the Mk IVD as well as many were fitted with the Merlin 27. Mason states that the V project used an overboosted Merlin 32 for it's speed trials.

 

[RCAFson]

Spitfire XIV Performance

Typhoon IB Performance Data

Tempest V Performance Data

The Tempest did not carry bombs operationally during WW2.

I meant, of course, the Merlin Spitfires.

 

[altsym]

So with all that, its still 20mph slower then the BF 109F-4 at altitude.

 

[Aozora]

Thanks very much for the info - really interesting stuff!

I note the great disparity between the proposed performance for this aircraft and the proposal mentioned by Morgan and Shacklady - do you have any thoughts on the differences between the two?

Easy! 370 mph at 23,000 ft is far more realistic than 425 mph. The Hurricane needed to be modified more than the Spitfire to use the Griffon, including moving the wing forward, with a new centre section to retain the cg within limits and, as expected for the Merlin 61, the cooling system was to be radically modified: the Spitfire VC, by comparison, needed a strengthened main longeron and other local modifications to achieve 397 mph at 17,900 ft Spitfire Mk XII DP.845 Report so that 30 mph gap still existed, in spite of the modifications. Thanks for the insight Neil.

Fitting a Merlin 60 series to the Hurricane would more than likely require even more substantial modifications because the Merlin 61 was much longer than the single-stage Griffon A (88 inches v 71 inches) and weighed about 130 lbs less http://www.spitfireperformance.com/Griffon-VI.jpg, all for a fighter with sub-par performance.

 

[wuzak]

Hawker document covering the proposed Griffon Hurricane, page 2 is missing, however, my hand written note gives:-

330mph at 8,000ft
370mph at 23,000ft
Time to 20,000ft 6.5 mins.

Easy! 370 mph at 23,000 ft is far more realistic than 425 mph. The Hurricane needed to be modified more than the Spitfire to use the Griffon, including moving the wing forward, with a new centre section to retain the cg within limits and, as expected for the Merlin 61, the cooling system was to be radically modified: the Spitfire VC, by comparison, needed a strengthened main longeron and other local modifications to achieve 397 mph at 17,900 ft Spitfire Mk XII DP.845 Report so that 30 mph gap still existed, in spite of the modifications. Thanks for the insight Neil.

Interesting that the time to climb for the Griffon Hurricane was faster than the Spitfire XII - 6.5 minutes to 20,000ft vs 6.7 minutes.

 

[wuzak]

I meant, of course, the Merlin Spitfires.

Of course the Typhoons were faster at low altitude.

It's called brute force.

Though the LF.IX was close (340mph @ 0ft vs 345.5mph @ 1000ft) Spitfire LF Mk IX Speed Trials, Typhoon IB Performance Data

With +25psi boost (~2000hp) instead of +18psi the LF.IX improves to 354mph @ 0ft.

A VB with the Merlin 50M with +18psi boost manages 334mph @ 2000ft Spitfire F. Mk.VB Climb and level speed performance.

The Spitfire XII could do 346mph @ 0ft with +12psi boost.

 

[Juha]

T...I note the great disparity between the proposed performance for this aircraft and the proposal mentioned by Morgan and Shacklady - do you have any thoughts on the differences between the two?...

One reason might be the nature of M S bible, much of its info is copied from old Flight magazines and so there are mistakes and bad omissions, for ex. the story of CS airscrews for Hurri and Spit in 40. The original article was written by a DH man and told only the DH side of the story, completely missing the very significant Rotol contribution.

Juha