Help with understanding a deflection shot?

[WriterGirl]

Non-aviator here--I'm writing about a P-39 over the South Pacific in WWII. In a steep bank, the pilot began firing on a Nakajima B5N from "a 90 degree deflection and closed in to 10 degrees". He scored a hit and the enemy aircraft went down in flames. Can someone explain this description to me? I assume a 90% defection would have required much skill (the pilot would have shot ahead of the target by estimating its distance and speed)? What would this have looked like from the pilot's perspective and also from the Kate's perspective?

The pilot destroyed three other enemy aircraft that day as well--one a Zeke that he attacked by firing a 10 degree deflection shot at a range of 200 yards, another, a Zeke-type, that he attacked by firing a 5 degree deflection shot at a range of 200 yards closing to 50 yards, and the last, a Tony that he overtook and in a rear attack, managed a 30 degree deflection shot.

Many thanks.

 

[33k in the air]

The deflection angle is a measure of the angle from the target to the firing aircraft. A 0º deflection shot means the attacking aircraft is directly behind the target aircraft. A 10º deflection angle means the firing aircraft is 10º off the tail of the target aircraft. A 90º angle means the firing aircraft is basically perpendicular to the target aircraft. The larger the angle, the more difficult the shot.

This post from the IL-2 Sturmovik forum has a graphic that helps illustrate what it looks like.

 

[WriterGirl]

The deflection angle is a measure of the angle from the target to the firing aircraft. A 0º deflection shot means the attacking aircraft is directly behind the target aircraft. A 10º deflection angle means the firing aircraft is 10º off the tail of the target aircraft. A 90º angle means the firing aircraft is basically perpendicular to the target aircraft. The larger the angle, the more difficult the shot.

This post from the IL-2 Sturmovik forum has a graphic that helps illustrate what it looks like.

Thank you so much

 

[ClayO]

I have read that the vast majority of successful attacks were made with very little deflection, like 5-10 degrees, but I can't find that source right now.

 

[pbehn]

Non-aviator here--I'm writing about a P-39 over the South Pacific in WWII. In a steep bank, the pilot began firing on a Nakajima B5N from "a 90 degree deflection and closed in to 10 degrees". He scored a hit and the enemy aircraft went down in flames. Can someone explain this description to me? I assume a 90% defection would have required much skill (the pilot would have shot ahead of the target by estimating its distance and speed)? What would this have looked like from the pilot's perspective and also from the Kate's perspective?

The pilot destroyed three other enemy aircraft that day as well--one a Zeke that he attacked by firing a 10 degree deflection shot at a range of 200 yards, another, a Zeke-type, that he attacked by firing a 5 degree deflection shot at a range of 200 yards closing to 50 yards, and the last, a Tony that he overtook and in a rear attack, managed a 30 degree deflection shot.

Many thanks.

Deflection shooting requires a lot of skill and training, studies showed most "kills" were made at less than 20degrees. Success improved with gyroscopic gun sights, one of the biggest problem for pilots was estimating range, which these sights also helped with.

 

[buffnut453]

What would this have looked like from the pilot's perspective and also from the Kate's perspective?

The pilots' perspectives will rather depend on the details of the engagement. Imagine that the Kate is crossing in front of you from right to left. If the P-39 was flying a pursuit curve, turning to try and get behind the enemy aircraft, at a high angle of bank, then it's entirely possible that the P-39 pilot wouldn't even see the Kate because it would be hidden by the nose of his own aircraft. Conversely, in the same engagement set-up, if the P-39 was banking into the Kate target with its right wing down, then the Kate would be visible through the forward upper part of the cockpit canopy.

I'm not sure I've described it very well but I hope you get the mental picture.

 

[33k in the air]

Thank you so much

You're welcome.

On YouTube you can find numerous videos of WWII gun camera footage from fighters engaged in a dogfight. No better visualization possible than the real thing!

 

[ClayO]

Deflection shooting requires a lot of skill and training, studies showed most "kills" were made at less than 20degrees. Success improved with gyroscopic gun sights, one of the biggest problem for pilots was estimating range, which these sights also helped with.

A high angle deflection would be a little like skeet shooting - except you're not standing still, the target's path is unique to the situation and unpredictable, and clay pigeons don't shoot back!

 

[mjfur]

.

 

[pbehn]

A high angle deflection would be a little like skeet shooting - except you're not standing still, the target's path is unique to the situation and unpredictable, and clay pigeons don't shoot back!

You cant crash into the pigeon either.

 

[GrauGeist]

You cant crash into the pigeon either.

Or get fouled by the clay's debris, too!

 

[ClayO]

Here are some examples of gun camera footage from engagements like you're describing: at about 3:00, a brief one at 4:59 and two more at 6:00. This is Spitfires and Bf109's or FW190's, but the action is generally the same as you're describing.

 

[drgondog]

Non-aviator here--I'm writing about a P-39 over the South Pacific in WWII. In a steep bank, the pilot began firing on a Nakajima B5N from "a 90 degree deflection and closed in to 10 degrees". He scored a hit and the enemy aircraft went down in flames. Can someone explain this description to me? I assume a 90% defection would have required much skill (the pilot would have shot ahead of the target by estimating its distance and speed)? What would this have looked like from the pilot's perspective and also from the Kate's perspective?

The pilot destroyed three other enemy aircraft that day as well--one a Zeke that he attacked by firing a 10 degree deflection shot at a range of 200 yards, another, a Zeke-type, that he attacked by firing a 5 degree deflection shot at a range of 200 yards closing to 50 yards, and the last, a Tony that he overtook and in a rear attack, managed a 30 degree deflection shot.

Many thanks.

No US pilot Ever destroyed four axis aircraft with a P-39 in a mission. Only one scored a total of five in the P-39. Put him in a -38 or P-40.

 

[Peter Gunn]

Didn't WIlliam Shomo knock down seven in one mission, something like six Tonys and a Betty they were escorting flying an F-6D (Photo P-51D)?

 

[special ed]

According to the book, his wingman got 4, then back at their base the wingman landed while Shomo did victory rolls, Those watching, admonished the wingman about his lead doing victory rolls as they were taken seriously. When the wingman told what happened, he was asked why he had not done rolls. His answer was, " I just checked out in this plane and I'm not sure how."

 

[eagledad]

Gentlemen

According to Study 85 and various books on the P-38.

Harry T Hanna, 37th Fighter Squadron (FS) 14th Fighter Group (FG) on Sept 10, 1943 was credited with 5 Ju 87's.
William Leverette 37FS 14FG on September 10, 1943 was credited with 7 Ju 87's
Herbert Hatch Jr, 71FS 1FG on June 10, 1944 was credited with 5 FW-190s, later changed to IAR 80's. In all fairness, post war records suggest that there may have been some over claiming. However, Study 85 credits hatch with 5.
Laurence "Scrappy" Blumer 393FS 367FG on Aug 25 1944 was credited with 5 FW-190's.

There were also P-47 and P-51 pilots that were credited with 5 plus air to air kills in a single mission. (Also navy pilots against Japan).

FWIW

Eagledad

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I think Bill meant "No US pilot Ever destroyed four axis aircraft in a mission" with a P-39.

 

[GrauGeist]

But it makes for a good story, especially if the author is providing the reader accurate bits of info during the action (something the movies could learn from).

 

[pbehn]

With a true 90 degree deflection shot, depending on speeds, number of guns and rate of fire it is possible to do everything perfectly and still miss, or hit with only one or two rounds. A Nakajima "Kate" (33ft long) doing 180MPH (264ft/sec) passes its own length in 1/8 second, how many bullets does a P-39 fire in 1/8 second.

 

[Greg Boeser]

Well, the description is a flat side attack beginning at 90 degrees and closing to 10 degrees. So the attacker starts at 90 degree deflection and pulls in behind the target to finish it.